[Steve_TPF]

Originally Posted by Steve_TPF

Quote:
"I am conceding somewhat to what you said about gold finding--so, his father said he was divining. So what? He was a poor boy, a lot tried shortcuts to riches. Again, just being accused of fraud doesn't make it a comnviction . See "I am a prisoner on a chain Gang" with Paul Muni. This is based on a true story--many states abolished chain gangs after this came out. Also, see my testimony of my falsely accused realation, I mentioned, $5,000 just to purge a false charge--should have been free!"


A: I'm not interested in your relative.
B: You finally admit that he was a "gold finder". Except he didn't find any. Shortcut it may well have been, but it's still fraud, convicted or not.
C: The men who murdered Smith weren't convicted either. So according to your logic, they didn't do it. Which means the "Martyrdom" story is nothing but mormon propaganda.
D: You want a contemporary example? OJ wasn't convicted. Michael Jackson wasn't convicted. Are you 100% certain of those verdicts?

There is ample evidence to support my original claims, ie. that Smith was a con-man and that he ordered the destruction of the press. Read The Destruction of the "Nauvoo Expositor"—Proceedings of the Nauvoo City Council and Mayor.

You meanwhile have provided nothing that discounts my points. Your claims that Smith wasn't a "gold-finder" and didn't destroy the press are false. Neither have you provided me with any reason to believe that Smith was a genuine prophet rather than a talented liar.

While you may not feel confident in posting your arguments on the board I certainly am. So if you persist in this discussion I am going to paste this entire conversation in the thread where it belongs.

Originally Posted by ninefingers

Only because I care. My arguements aren't "groundless". It is easy, isn't it, to say things when you are 13, 000 kM away?
Quote:

» 1994 » June - Martyrdom at Carthage By Reed Blake
On the morning of Tuesday, June 25, events moved rapidly. Joseph and Hyrum, charged with riot for the June 10 destruction of the Nauvoo Expositor press, surrendered themselves to Constable Davis Bettisworth in Carthage despite being acquitted earlier on related charges. Nauvoo City Council members, feeling that the press threatened their lives and liberties by inciting mob violence against them, had ruled, within the rights they felt were granted by the Nauvoo Charter, that the newspaper was a public nuisance. As directed by the city council, the Prophet, acting as mayor, had then ordered the marshal to destroy the press.

Okjaty, I read Blake, seems I was wrong. But the Ensign didn't mention this. Even so, you said he was in jail on Treason charges, as Blake/History of the Church said. You said"for destruction of the press." You are groundless on this one point.

I am conceding somewhat to what you said about gold finding--so, his father said he was divining. So what? He was a poor boy, a lot tried shortcuts to riches. Again, just being accused of fraud doesn't make it a comnviction . See "I am a prisoner on a chain Gang" with Paul Muni. This is based on a true story--many states abolished chain gangs after this came out. Also, see my testimony of my falsely accused realation, I mentioned, $5,000 just to purge a false charge--should have been free!
Quote:
A: I'm not interested in your relative.
B: You finally admit that he was a "gold finder". Except he didn't find any. Shortcut it may well have been, but it's still fraud, convicted or not.
C: The men who murdered Smith weren't convicted either. So according to your logic, they didn't do it. Which means the "Martyrdom" story is nothing but mormon propaganda.
D: You want a contemporary example? OJ wasn't convicted. Michael Jackson wasn't convicted. Are you 100% certain of those verdicts?


No, I am NOt "Finally " admitting. see my earlier letters. Read Them. Don't be an S. or an R.
Don't be childish and put words in my mouth. Smith was no fraud--just being accused, again, read your legal text, doesn't mean innocent Or guilty. I don't believe Smith was guilty, just as some don't think O.J. was either (I Do.)
My relative was a first-hand example that you and S. seem to harp on. Just an allegory. I'd be concerned if you said it happened to a friend of yousr, now? Isn't that the Christian way?

Quote
There is ample evidence to support my original claims, ie. that Smith was a con-man and that he ordered the destruction of the press. Read The Destruction of the "Nauvoo Expositor"—Proceedings of the Nauvoo City Council and Mayor.
You meanwhile have provided nothing that discounts my points. Your claims that Smith wasn't a "gold-finder" and didn't destroy the press are false. Neither have you provided me with any reason to believe that Smith was a genuine prophet rather than a talented liar.

There is no Evidence of being a con man in the BYU files--only the press destruction.

I can't prove he was a prophet. Don't be silly. Faith is not Science--you should know that by now. I don't attack your Faith, do I? Unless you are Scientologist or devil worshiper or Thugee, I don't care.
Why are you so Anti-Mormon? Why do you have so much on it? No, I'm not trying to convert you, just what got you on this?
Quote:
While you may not feel confident in posting your arguments on the board I certainly am. So if you persist in this discussion I am going to paste this entire conversation in the thread where it belongs.
Is this a threat, like S?

No, it's not a threat, it's a statement.

Originally Posted by ninefingers

Even so, you said he was in jail on Treason charges, as Blake/History of the Church said. You said"for destruction of the press." You are groundless on this one point.

I'll acknowledge this correction.The article I read said he was awaiting trial on charges relating to the destruction of the press - it didn't say the charge was treason, nor mention an aquittal on the press destruction.

Originally Posted by Reed Blake

On the morning of Tuesday, June 25, events moved rapidly. Joseph and Hyrum, charged with riot for the June 10 destruction of the Nauvoo Expositor press, surrendered themselves to Constable Davis Bettisworth in Carthage despite being acquitted earlier on related charges.

So your source actually says riot, not treason. Seems I'm not the only one who was mislead here.

Originally Posted by ninefingers

No, I am NOt "Finally " admitting. see my earlier letters. Read Them. Don't be an S. or an R.
Don't be childish and put words in my mouth. Smith was no fraud--just being accused, again, read your legal text, doesn't mean innocent Or guilty. I don't believe Smith was guilty, just as some don't think O.J. was either (I Do.)
My relative was a first-hand example that you and S. seem to harp on. Just an allegory. I'd be concerned if you said it happened to a friend of yousr, now? Isn't that the Christian way?

I'm not interested in your relative because he has nothing to do with this conversation. I wasn't harping on him, you kept bringing him/her up.
You say "Smith was no fraud", but can you provide any evidence of him actually finding buried treasure?

Originally Posted by ninefingers

There is no Evidence of being a con man in the BYU files--only the press destruction.

I can't prove he was a prophet. Don't be silly. Faith is not Science--you should know that by now. I don't attack your Faith, do I? Unless you are Scientologist or devil worshiper or Thugee, I don't care.
Why are you so Anti-Mormon? Why do you have so much on it? No, I'm not trying to convert you, just what got you on this?

1: He took money from people in exchange for promises to find buried treasure. No treasure was found, it was a con. Accept it.

2: I am not religious, this is not a matter of "faith" - it's a question of evidence.

3: I'm not "anti-mormon", I'm simply addressing this topic the way I do any other - looking for references to support the argument. What "gets me" is your persistant denial of the available evidence, and your refusal to post this openly, despite my requests. If you really want to debate then do it in the open. I'm not your pen-pal.

Unfortunately the links didn't come with the cut-and-paste. If anyone actually cares I'll insert them later. I'll also straighten out any quotations. Right now I have to go to work.