Freedom Of Information Act

[asdew]

As I understand it, The Freedom of Information Act states that (among other things) all Operations by all Military,Intelligence, and Law Enforcement Organizations must eventually be revealed to the public. My question is, does the public need to know about this? Is the possible riots and public outrage worth the public knowing about some widespread domestic surveillance or high profile assassinations that happened 30 years ago? For example if the CIA did assassinate JFK like some people speculate, there would huge riots everywhere, possibly thousands dead. Would It really have been worth saying that to the people? There stands my question.

p.s Here's some light reading about the reason the CIA might have killed JFK
Operation Northwoods - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
pp.s Here's some other JFK assassination theories
Kennedy assassination conspiracy theories - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The Master Of Reality
Asdew

[shetlan]

First off, the CIA didn't assasinate JFK. The mob had him killed because he didn't pay them back for everything they did for him (you know, like getting him elected and financing his camaign). Most Americans have long since accepted that JFK was in debt to the mob, many have gotten to the stage of acceptance where they claim they "always knew".

Secondly, JFK's assasination was 40 years ago, nobody gives a damn anymore (and anyone involved is dead by now). If it turned out that the CIA did kill him, there would be a few weeks of news coverage, a couple of "I told you so's", and then nothing. A few people would lose their stars on the wall at CIA headquarters - nothing more.

As for the freedom of information act, it doesn't mean squat - just like the executive order forbidding assasination doesn't mean squat. Under the freedom of information act, I can ask the FBI for a copy of their file on me - but they can deny me access to the file if they claim it's part of an investigation (which they will as soon as I ask for it).

[Steve_TPF]

I agree with shetlan here. In theory everything gets released to the public eventually. In practice it doesn't. Any agency that wants to keep something secret will simply declare national interest, or deny that they have the information. There's no way to force them to make it public.

[asdew]

spose youre right. thanks anyway.

[Widigo]

It does leave one to wonder. I do believe, however, that there does come a point at which things need to not be revealed. I have always been fascinated with the little secrets and details, not because they are interesting but because they prove that a lot of things need to remain secret. Not only to keep the peace, but also because they would affect the country's standing with other nations. In the end the complicated nature or the huge companies we call countries is just a little bigger than the scope of what we know. What would you think of a country that's intelligence force is executing it's leaders. I think the Mob's involvement makes perfect sense. At the very least it looks better than government involvement. I also agree that it means very little to most modern people. We turn up interesting details every day about the world around us that are not talked about nearly as much as American Idol.

[Fayle]

Freedom of Information pertains itself to working hazards and possible hazards you can come in occurrence in everyday life.


If you want to know about the little "secrets" and what they do, look at the cold war. Study it up. You will learn everything there is to know about those "secrets"

[shetlan]

Originally Posted by Fayle

Freedom of Information pertains itself to working hazards and possible hazards you can come in occurrence in everyday life.


If you want to know about the little "secrets" and what they do, look at the cold war. Study it up. You will learn everything there is to know about those "secrets"

What on earth does that have to do with the Freedom of Information Act?

[Pikkle Juice]

Originally Posted by Fayle

Freedom of Information pertains itself to working hazards and possible hazards you can come in occurrence in everyday life.


If you want to know about the little "secrets" and what they do, look at the cold war. Study it up. You will learn everything there is to know about those "secrets"

really? i understand that history repeats itself but you sir are just babbling for the sake of being heard

[Voodoo5]

I assume that the US gov. has some sort of time frame to deliver information
approved for release...
But here I am, where the government has found some sort of legal loophole
allowing them to delay approved releases for a previously unacceptable amount of time (at most, a month and a half).
*that includes... say, a death certificate for your father in-law, but really, I haven't tried.

And when we go online in Canada we face an outrage that has not been forced upon Americans: new legislation permits police and gov agencies the power to get our addresses and activity reports
WITHOUT WARRANTS! I don't know how we let it happen,
so if some guy In the OPP wants to trace people for the fun of it, he can.
If he wants to send the RCMP (believe me, there ain't no red coats and brown hats... just a battering ram, too much adrenaline, and a taser that they like to play around with in case you try to hang up the phone before they cuff you)
into your home and charge you for whatever you did or did not
do, he can (without a judge's approval) do so based on whatever evidence he was not allowed to posses prior to the act.

problem being that the list of "cyber crimes" these shitbags can get you for is growing, and much too quickly

[shetlan]

Originally Posted by Voodoo5

I assume that the US gov. has some sort of time frame to deliver information
approved for release...

There is, but almost anyone can have the period extended. Presidents, CIA directors, Senators, etc. If they don't want it to come out - it won't.

[Voodoo5]

yes, but casual, non-classified material is being delayed (the stuff that the
CSIS doesn't go ape over... americans know more about the CIA than we know about the CSIS) beyond limits and in combination with a tight lipped conservative party that is known to be extrordinarily apathetic in dealing with convicted citizens.

(in cased of Kadhr, the guy stranded in sudan or somalia, and of course the now celebrated Arar case)
sorry for complaining off topic.

[shetlan]

Well, personally I'd be happy if classified actions by the CIA where never made public. But there's a trade-off; if you're going to keep certain things secret permanently, then you need to be more open about the other things you do.

Example:
Mossad is likely the most secretive of all the intelligence services. None the less, they are happy to admit to assassinations of members of the PLO, Hamas, and even the occasional foreign dignitary. Despite this willingness to claim responsibility, they remain one of the world's most secretive groups - but thanks to their openness on the subject of assassination, they are also one of the most feared.

[CHEVY_454_POWER]

They leave footprints so everybody fears them. But......


Chevy

[shetlan]

Originally Posted by CHEVY_454_POWER

They leave footprints so everybody fears them.

In psychological warfare, there is something of a Holy Grail called the "Forest of Mirrors" (there's also a spy thriller by the same name). When you've created a "forest of mirrors", you've caused your opponent to decend into a helpless state of paranoia - one which will compell him to look over his shoulder for the rest of his life. He doesn't know "who" is after him, he doesn't know "what" they look like - all he knows is that "THEY" are out to get him, and "THEY" are everywhere.

The Mossad has perfectly crafted their forest of mirrors. Not unlike the ninja of feudal Japan, they shroud themselves in secrecy - which only serves to fuel legends of their greatness.

If your enemy has no face, how do you recognize him?
If your enemy has no name, how do you find him?
If you can't find him or know him - how can you fight him?

[Husky]

Shetlan, the end of that post sounded really cool haha

[shetlan]

Originally Posted by Husky

Shetlan, the end of that post sounded really cool haha

Thank you - granted, I didn't actually come up with it, but I'll take the credit just the same.

[Core Entropy]

Well think about this. I am sure they have thought about all of this and looked at the loopholes in the FoIA. So after reading the act myself about six times i figured this, just because the information is declassified does not mean the Government has to go public with the information. They can easily just put it in the basement of a military base and if someone asks for it then they will give it to them. One way of keeping information secret in the Government.

And shetlan, Ninjas rules. =O

[lnsurgent]

First off, I'm not too much into the whole conspiracy thing. Though, I will say it's a bit suspicious when the Presidents men would leave his side as he is in an OPEN car. I'm talking about JFK. I wish someone would explain this to me, because it makes no sense at all. They were told to back off, and you can CLEARLY see one of the agents shrugging his soldiers and throwing his hands up as to say "WTF?!".

Kennedy was fucking things up for people, someone knows something.

I wish to fuck someone came out and said something. I'd love to see this country explode, we need it. It's like a giant case of blueballs here, we need to bust our collective nut all over the place.

As for shit being protected here, on this site? I'm actually on the fence about that. On one hand, sure, we should be protected, say as we wish. BUT, people also have the right to live without fear of being a victim . It's a tough one.

[Fayle]

This site is far from safe. If you say "i'm going to murder FAKENAME", you can easily be charged by the electronics detectives department. No one is safe from anything anywhere, internet or in person. So do not give yourself false security.

On the JFK matter, all conspiracies except one were dis proven, and it is also a fact that Lee Harvey Oswald did not kill JFK, he was shot from a small hill right next to the road JFK was riding on, using directive testing they found out the exact position of the shot and the sniper, it was thought Lee Harvey Oswald murdered JFK because he actually attempted to (without knowing someone else was going to attempt the same) and missed his shot, hence the reason the one Secret Service agent in the car with JFK got shot in the back left shoulder plate. Lee Harvey Oswald then shot and killed an Officer 45 minutes after the murder of JFK and then he was murdered himself that same day so most of the evidence was lost at his death.

[ninefingers]

Originally Posted by shetlan

First off, the CIA didn't assasinate JFK. The mob had him killed because he didn't pay them back for everything they did for him (you know, like getting him elected and financing his camaign). Most Americans have long since accepted that JFK was in debt to the mob, many have gotten to the stage of acceptance where they claim they "always knew".

Just like the executive order forbidding assasination doesn't mean squat.

Oh, you're Sure, are you? Isn't this a "Conspiracy theory" that you so often harp against?

Seems I read this in "The Everything Mafia Book". (The fact that I believe it doesn't affect it still being a C/T: A favor asked by Joe Kennedy to stuff ballot boxes by the Italian mob to get WVA, a 98% Protestant state, etc, to get JFK into the Primaries; and Attorney General Bobby Kennedy later going after the mob, I believe. This Still doesn't affect that this is "opinion", and needs be prefixed by an "I believe"; or "I think"; and the page nos. referred to. ) An "Everybody knows this" ; or "No one ( who?-I do-!) cares" is invalid.

Also, isn't this second line contradicting your: "they can't do this", like you said to my court case numbers I gave about people busted for CCW when they were O/C? It isn't what they "can't do"--it's what they get away with that counts. You just said it, here.

Originally Posted by Fayle

This site is far from safe. If you say "i'm going to murder FAKENAME", you can easily be charged by the electronics detectives department. No one is safe from anything anywhere, internet or in person. So do not give yourself false security.

True, Google records every website you enter, ever. Even if you don't open it.

hence the reason the one Secret Service agent in the car with JFK got shot in the back left shoulder plate.

No, No, Governor Connally , was shot in the back in the car. Please read the history books.

[lnsurgent]

Sup, brothas.

I was wondering if anyone had mentioned the fact agents were called off as they were supposed to be protecting J.F.K...

Am I allowed to post links? I've been reading up on some shit to do with black holes n such, and my memory is stressed like shit. I'll post, or you can get it yourself if need be.

[ninefingers]

Didn.t hear of that one; but not surprised. All my Mom could say was:"Why didn't he have the top up?" There should have been Secret Service In the car , as well, Even if the top weren't bulletproof--I don't think it was--It would have made it harder to hit Kennedy.

Links--I think, generally Yes, if they are directly relevant to the F.O.I. Act in this thead. Speaking of which, I realise I digress, like the others. Let's let the Moderator answer that.

[lnsurgent]

Originally Posted by ninefingers

Didn.t hear of that one; but not surprised. All my Mom could say was:"Why didn't he have the top up?" There should have been Secret Service In the car , as well, Even if the top weren't bulletproof--I don't think it was--It would have made it harder to hit Kennedy.

Links--I think, generally Yes, if they are directly relevant to the F.O.I. Act in this thead. Speaking of which, I realise I digress, like the others. Let's let the Moderator answer that.

Here it is, tell me thats not a little odd.



YouTube - JFK assassination: Secret Service Standdown

[spunone69]

I'm not going to indulge any JFK conspiracy crap right now...but the "Freedom of Information Act" was effectively canceled out by the "Patriot Act" which gave US Government total control of all information dissemination...they decide what you can and can't have access too - they always have and they always will!!

[hrril]

i think it should be as ,well , declassified, under the circumstances that what is revealed will not cause endangerment to a person, not a single person, because that could put someone at risk, which is not safe, therefore is endangerment. (thesis) Thus only allow the public to know what will not bring casualties or injuries.

Now, about waterboarding, I looked it up on Wikipedia, (wow) by the way, it was torture, and I think of it as introducing someone to the Grim Reaper, but then letting them get away without a deadly handshaek.

[Stephen Doubt]

Originally Posted by Widigo

What would you think of a country that's intelligence force is executing it's leaders.

Heh, that actually sounds a little like the Praetorian Guard.