FP amounts

larrydavid · #1 (**permalink**) 10-16-2009, 10:13 PM

Hey guys I have been doing flash powder mixtures for the past week now and its been a great time and learning experiance. I remember searching and reading that more isn't always quite better when it comes to FP. I have been trying to get the most explosive power out of it and today before I went to work I did about a 35-40 gram tube under a wheel barrow and launched it about 60 feet up. If I were to increase it to say 60 grams do you guys think it would be a noticable increase in launching distance? I don't have much left otherwise I'd be experimenting myself. Thanks! Also what would you guys recommend as a next step past FP?

[Lt] · #2 (**permalink**) 10-16-2009, 10:23 PM

What is the maximum amount of flash powder you can ever saftely work with?

larrydavid · #3 (**permalink**) 10-16-2009, 10:29 PM

I tend to make my batches with 100 grams because its an easy ratio of 70/30 but you can easily increase it or decrease it by doubling or halfing the amounts if your not too mathematically inclined.

[Lt] · #4 (**permalink**) 10-17-2009, 07:04 AM

Wow, this is totally unsafe.

I must state that batches should never exceed 50grams.

X-ray Cat · #5 (**permalink**) 10-18-2009, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by [Lt]

Wow, this is totally unsafe.

I must state that batches should never exceed 50grams.

Because??.............

ninefingers · #6 (**permalink**) 10-18-2009, 03:04 PM

100 grams of F/P, mixed, is enough for 20 M-80's. That could take several fingers off, if you are pressing all that in one container. Maybe an eye.
Al powder is very "light"; so it adds up, fast. Best to not make more than you can thoroughly shake in one Baggie at a time. It will be mixed much better, and if any static sets it off, there will only be the 10 grams or so in the bag.

larrydavid · #7 (**permalink**) 10-19-2009, 01:21 AM

yeah since i make this much at one time I dont use the bag, I use a 8/12 by 11 sheet of paper to carefully roll them over each other but can no one answer my orginal question I have already made a 90 gram tube so I guess ill figure it out soon enough.

Timm · #8 (**permalink**) 10-19-2009, 06:26 AM

How the hell you do a hundo grams on a sheet of notebook paper? Go to your newspaper printing joint and ask for a roll end- it'll be whats left of a huge roll of newsprint when its too little to run through the press.. and usually comes on a bad-ass cardboard tube about 4 inches around with half inch thick wall. real handy stuff to have around, you end up using it for everything.

And another lil flashpowder secret i've discovered.. Don't skip right over the nitrate-based recipes like i always did, figuring they were inferior to perc or chlorate comps. Yeah you'll have to use a better casing, and follow it up with some black tape or similar (twine wrapped close and tight as possible will kick ass too!), but it is way impressive. I put some green stars in this tiny lil pill bottle with some nitrate flash, taped up well, lit it and ran.. holy hell, hurt my ears! Sounded just like the huge-ass m-80 i lit right after.

Stuff i like is called " bangor powder", its 4-1-1 of kno3, dark aluminum flake and sulfur. Try it!! Way safer to mix and handle, cheaper, its like black powder on crack and steroids! maybe a lil PCP thrown in there. A 1x1x1.5'' firecracker jumps the stump i test under when a marble-sized bit of plastic (while although breaking the metal thing in half i was testing it on) is quiet like a lumpy fart. Impressed!

X-ray Cat · #9 (**permalink**) 10-19-2009, 07:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ninefingers

100 grams of F/P, mixed, is enough for 20 M-80's. That could take several fingers off, if you are pressing all that in one container. Maybe an eye.
Al powder is very "light"; so it adds up, fast. Best to not make more than you can thoroughly shake in one Baggie at a time. It will be mixed much better, and if any static sets it off, there will only be the 10 grams or so in the bag.

Yes, and if you hold a 10 grams firecracker too close to your face it'll also take an eye. If that's your reason you might aswell tell everybody who makes explosives to stop doing so. A 2 gram blastingcap can take a hand off, imagine what a 1 kg anfo does to ya.. get my point??

ninefingers · #10 (**permalink**) 10-19-2009, 03:03 PM

Just asking you to stay safe, like the others. Only mix a small amount at a time.

I think double the amount of any propellant, like F/P, will make double the results. So, 60/40=1.5; times 60 feet=90 feet in the air. Time how long it takes to reach the ground or use a theodolite: 1/2 (32) (1/2 total time) squared=height. Or, tangent of the angle read on theodolite (gunscope taped to protractor with weighted string) times baseline to blast zone=total height lifted.

I've made about 1/2 kg ANFO; it removes stumps well. Shoots them 6' in the air; even with two tarps over them! Rocks fly 50'. This is with the charge 2' in the ground!

Timm; you double-posted. Or, just find a 4" sonotube left at a construction site.

CanadianPyro · #11 (**permalink**) 10-19-2009, 07:33 PM

The relationship between the quantity of FP and the height of the wheelbarrow is not linear. Doubling the FP amount will increase the height, but far from double it. The physics is not all that simple, so I won't bore you with an explanation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by [Lt]

Wow, this is totally unsafe.

I must state that batches should never exceed 50grams.

There's little perceivable difference between 50 grams and 100 grams in the event of an accident. Both would either kill you, or maim you so badly that you would wish you were dead.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ninefingers

Al powder is very "light"; so it adds up, fast. Best to not make more than you can thoroughly shake in one Baggie at a time. It will be mixed much better, and if any static sets it off, there will only be the 10 grams or so in the bag.

I would not suggest mixing flash in a plastic bag, as the polyethylene material is very prone to acquiring a static charge. Even with small amounts, there is still a risk of hearing damage or burns if the mixture accidentally ignites. Diapering is good, but even with proper technique, it takes several minutes to properly mix a small amount. Personally, I prefer shaking the components together in a folded over paper cup. This eliminates the risk of static charge buildup, and with enough head space, perfectly mixes the flash in a matter of seconds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timm

And another lil flashpowder secret i've discovered.. Don't skip right over the nitrate-based recipes like i always did, figuring they were inferior to perc or chlorate comps. Yeah you'll have to use a better casing, and follow it up with some black tape or similar (twine wrapped close and tight as possible will kick ass too!), but it is way impressive. I put some green stars in this tiny lil pill bottle with some nitrate flash, taped up well, lit it and ran.. holy hell, hurt my ears! Sounded just like the huge-ass m-80 i lit right after.

I used to make Nitrate flash with dark Al, and I'll agree that it is underrated. A KNO3/S/German Dark mix made my black powder look slow, but it still couldn't hold a candle to KClO4 flash. Haven't made it since 07 for that very reason.

larrydavid · #12 (**permalink**) 10-19-2009, 07:41 PM

thanks guys for your concern and ideas, its already made up just waiting for a day I don't have school or work. I have a bunch of aluminum left over so I'm going to give thermite a try.

spunone69 · #13 (**permalink**) 10-26-2009, 08:51 PM

I don't know what everyone is so worried about?? I mix 70/30 flash powder in three pound batches all the time. I buy the perchlorate in a two pound bag and the Al in a one pound bag and put both in a tupperware container and shake the hell out of it. I make 1/4 sticks every year for 4th of July and I have never had any problems with mixing it. The tubes I use are 3" long and 1.25" inner diameter with a 1/4" thick wall...and they shake the ground when they go off!!

Timm · #14 (**permalink**) 10-27-2009, 02:27 AM

Ha ha, Holy crap!

^^^^getta load of this guy!^^^^ Forget about your safety, that's almost not fair to your neighbors. Your homeowners insurer would probably be interested to know that as well.
Ummm... don't do that anymore. I'm always safe "to taste" as well, alarms go off when i know somethings kinda dangerous, and i take appropriate measures.. but there's nothing you can really do to make that safe. And realistically, there is no excuse to do flash in that size batch with that method. I believe static, friction ect. are all multiplied as the mass increases, blah blah blah; do whatever you want, i just hope to god there are no children (or anyone for that matter) around or in the house when that goes down.

Oh yeah sorry for the double posting a few days back, my computer is super 'tarded sometimes, i clicked on the post button and got nothin, did it again, ect.. didn't even think it went through.

spunone69 · #15 (**permalink**) 10-27-2009, 10:02 PM

Believe it or not, three pounds is not that much...it's probably smaller than a football! The container I use won't even fit a football inside it. I mix a batch once a year, and three pounds barely makes 100 1/4 sticks at 10 to 12 grams of powder per 1/4 stick. As long as you're careful and wear latex gloves, the chance of "static" is almost nothing. And last time I checked, chemicals cannot generate their own static charges, can they? It's not like I'm rubbing balloons on my hair and tossing the powder in the air!!!

spunone69 · #16 (**permalink**) 10-27-2009, 10:03 PM

But you are right...safety is important when playing with any kind of powders or explosives!!

CanadianPyro · #17 (**permalink**) 10-28-2009, 09:19 AM

"spunone69" is either trolling or just plain retarded.

Shaking 3 pounds of flash in a polyethylene container is among the stupidest things you can do if you have any desire to live. The quantity of powder will kill you instantly, even at a distance of several feet. The use of a polyethylene container significantly increases the risk of static charge buildup, which is by far the most common cause of accidental ignition. Polyethylene is very prone to triboelectric charging, which basically means it acquires a static charge easily. Since your body will usually have a different electrical potential and is in many cases effectively grounded, simply brining your hand near the container can cause a static discharge sufficient to ignite the powder.

Paper containers and smaller batches should be used. As Timm said, mixing 3 pounds of flash in a residential area is not fair to your neighbors, or anyone within a few hundred feet for that matter.

spunone69 · #18 (**permalink**) 10-29-2009, 09:37 PM

No, jackass, I'm not trolling!! I've been doing this every year, for quite a few years and have NEVER had a problem!! Just because you're a PUSSY, don't push your neurotic, cry-baby BS on everyone here!! Three pounds of flash powder is not that much...if you're scared, GO HOME TO MOMMY!! You can stay home with your panties on and make lady-fingers to entertain the mickey mouse club...I make REAL explosives!! And I ain't scared to do so!! SO GO F%#K YOURSELF!!

spunone69 · #19 (**permalink**) 10-29-2009, 09:42 PM

By the way...since I repair copiers for a living, I DO KNOW what a triboelectric charge is!! It has NOTHING to do with plastic or plastic containers and cannot be generated in the manner which you described. Which just goes to prove that you are a DUMB ASS!! Trying to use big words to prove a point that you FAILED to make just makes you look even more RETARDED than you claim I am!! Once again I repeat "GO F%&K YOURSELF!!"

Timm · #20 (**permalink**) 10-30-2009, 03:22 PM

How could you work on copiers and not think a powdered chemical can generate its own static charge? I mean hell, i ain't no stranger to bein wrong, but isn't that how granaries and the like blow up? Aren't there warning stickers on bulk containers of toner warning about static-initiated dust explosions?

And when you say you make real explosives do you mean just that or do you just make a shitload of flash? The dangers of large amounts of flash are what got me into making caps and all the other usual suspects, seems safer if you want a -big- explosion, its the flying shit that worries me at that point!

You're gonna do whatever you want no matter what, that much i know. But seriously man, 3 pounds really -is- alot. If it was nitrate flash i could kinda see where you're comin from, only if you hate mixin comp i guess. 3 pounds of chlorate/dark flake flash would blow the meat off your bones, perc the same way only would be somewhat less likely. It sounds like you know this, why you wanna do it like that? I guess i don't really give a damn either way, unless like i said there could be kids or other innocents around, which is basically unforgivable stupidity.

Or when i see on the news that some jackass has blown 77 pounds of his remains through the woodshed wall behind his mothers house and that an investigation is continuing into easily aquired "mail-order" explosives that require only mixing before ready for certain terrorist use, more at 11 with a special report to follow- "How can the CPSC allow these things to happen?" ugh just thinking about it makes me fuckin sick.

MurderSkillz · #21 (**permalink**) 11-06-2009, 02:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spunone69

I don't know what everyone is so worried about?? I mix 70/30 flash powder in three pound batches all the time. I buy the perchlorate in a two pound bag and the Al in a one pound bag and put both in a Tupperware container and shake the hell out of it. I make 1/4 sticks every year for 4th of July and I have never had any problems with mixing it. The tubes I use are 3" long and 1.25" inner diameter with a 1/4" thick wall...and they shake the ground when they go off!!

I mix 400 grams at a time also in a Tupperware container put lid on and shake it. I spray with anti static spray. Fast and works perfect.

ninefingers · #22 (**permalink**) 11-06-2009, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MurderSkillz

I spray with anti static spray. Fast and works perfect.

Yeah, that's what I n meant to say. There is anti static spray for sale everywhere around Tucson.

X-ray Cat · #23 (**permalink**) 11-17-2009, 12:29 PM

As i've shit knowledge about low orders I'd like to ask you guys if mixing potassium perchlorate with magnesium 32um (400 mesh) would make good flash..

Also, does ballmilling of 32um aluminum powder result in smaller grain size?

CanadianPyro · #24 (**permalink**) 11-18-2009, 11:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by X-ray Cat

As i've shit knowledge about low orders I'd like to ask you guys if mixing potassium perchlorate with magnesium 32um (400 mesh) would make good flash..

Also, does ballmilling of 32um aluminum powder result in smaller grain size?

KClO4/400 mesh Mg will make a very fast burning flash powder. It'll be much faster and more brisant than standard dark Al flash, but also accordingly more sensitive, and much less stable in storage.

As for milling Al, it depends on what you're using for media. Ceramic bound Alumina or steel yes, lead no. Common sense really, the media needs to be harder than the material being milled.

Does anyone know what happened to my other post in this thread? I posted a long response to spunone69's incredibly stupid comments, but it seems to have disappeared. I really don't think it warranted deletion, and I noticed that some other posts in this section have randomly disappeared.

_JT_ · #25 (**permalink**) 11-19-2009, 12:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by [Lt]

What is the maximum amount of flash powder you can ever saftely work with?

The short answer is none

You can minimise the risks involved with preparing and handling it, but I don't believe any amount can be considered truly "safe". I only ever mix enough for one salute at a time, and given that you can get a fantastically loud break with under a gram of FP, it's not the end of the world if something goes wrong and it ignites.

X-ray cat, do please bear in mind that fine Mg powder is pyrophoric and it's not unheard of for fine particles in the air to ignite from the moisture present. It's not the most likely thing in the world but it's something to keep in the back of your mind. I would personally stick to Al, for stability if nothing else.

You can get quite a nice effect by mixing in some really small Mg shavings - you get a lovely cascade of white-hot streaks flying out after the break, it's really lovely to behold.

CanadianPyro · #26 (**permalink**) 11-20-2009, 06:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by _JT_

The short answer is none

You can minimise the risks involved with preparing and handling it, but I don't believe any amount can be considered truly "safe". I only ever mix enough for one salute at a time, and given that you can get a fantastically loud break with under a gram of FP, it's not the end of the world if something goes wrong and it ignites.

Of course you can't completely eliminate risk, but the same can be said for most of life's practices. Everything caries the potential for injury; all you can really do is minimize the possibility by following logical processes. Mixing Perchlorate/Aluminum flash in a paper container carries a sufficiently small risk to be considered safe. Safer than many practices people take for granted and do every day, such as driving a vehicle on public streets.

I do agree that you should only make as much as you're going to use at one time. I see lots of morons on YouTube and such digging in 1lb bags of mixed flash to get <10g of composition for a couple M-80s. Sheer stupidity to treat such a powerful and sensitive composition like that.

_JT_ · #27 (**permalink**) 11-20-2009, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CanadianPyro

I do agree that you should only make as much as you're going to use at one time. I see lots of morons on YouTube and such digging in 1lb bags of mixed flash to get <10g of composition for a couple M-80s. Sheer stupidity to treat such a powerful and sensitive composition like that.

It's a shame really, and so wasteful. I'm by no means an expert but I always find it more fun to work out how to get great results with the least amount of material possible, than to make whacking great batches just for the sake of it. Getting the container just right so you get a really nice powerful break is much harder than mixing the composition, in my humble opinion

A Mk5 thunderflash pyro, for example, uses only .25g of BP and they make a fair old noise!