Abortions

[Kaine]

Originally Posted by Steve_TPF

I believe you think women will abandon all responsibility if they can "just get abortions". Except it isn't that simple. Most women think carefully before they have an abortion, some decide to keep the baby even if it wasn't planned. Having an abortion isn't much fun either BTW. It also puts women off sex for a while...

Denying women abortions won't stop some of them from being irresponsible though. It does mean that some will resort to dangerous "backroom" procedures.

When you say "the baby should have a chance", I believe you are picturing a middle-class girl/woman who could raise a child properly if she really wanted to, and has a welfare net to fall back on. This isn't always the case.

Take some of the outback aboriginal communities in Aust for example. Owing to bad parenting, lax moral standards and (sadly) sexual abuse, many children are sexually active before they are teenagers. Some get pregnant. The only "chance" these babies have is to be born disadvantaged in a dead-end situation where they will be neglected or abused. To make matters worse, many will suffer intellectual impairment because of poor nutrition and substance abuse during the pregnancy. These children will grow up damaged, and the cycle will continue. A few generations of this, (which won't take long with 13 year-old pregnancies), and the result will be a group of children so damaged they will need full-time care (which they probably won't get), for the rest of their short, unhappy lives.

Yes, I would preferr these girls abstained from sex. They won't.
Yes, I would prefer they used condoms. They don't. (At least not often enough.)
Failing that, abortion looks like a good choice. I know that any child can have a crappy life, but these kids definitely will.

Let's go back to that one in thirty years or so, and see how the "Damaged Generation" turns out.

You know Steve...I never saw it like that before. I wasn't really picturing a middle-classed raising. But still, you kind of shifted my eyes to a different perspective. I still don't readily believe in abortions but, I can see why it wouldn't be such a "bad" thing to give women the option.

It was really good discussing the topic with you though. Look forward to debating you again.

[shadow]

i recently read a quote that realy made alot of since to me. "if abortion were illigal, then haveing a miscarage would be involantary manslaughter."

[jrly]

Only vaguely relevant, and mostly based in US since I do not know what religions status is in other countries.

If feminists say that abortion should be legal and the government shouldn't be sticking their noses into others business, then why is prayer illegal in public school.

[Steve_TPF]

That's a topic for another thread.

[shadow]

well the point i was trying to make, was that, if abbortion was illigal, then the usa would constitutionally have to make haveing a misscarage illigal. this whole thread i was arguing that abortion should be illigal, but after reading that quote. my mind have been made to understand the absurdity of my arguments.

[lurkingwolf]

Originally Posted by shadow

to answer youre question headcase, id say human live starts when the cell starts to divide. it may not be self aware, but it is growing, and it is alive.

Yes, that is the technical beginning of "life" but for such a life to be
"human life" it would need to be self aware, e.g. able to understand its surroundings and it's own existence to some degree. If cells are a valued life, why do we use antibiotics to kill bacteria, a form of cell.

[headcase]

Bacteria are bacteria; each cell contains bacterial DNA. After fertilisation a human zygote contains an entire human genome; all the information necessary to form a human being. Of course, so does your hair and you have no problem cutting that off (which would have been a waaay better analogy).

[lurkingwolf]

Originally Posted by headcase

Bacteria are bacteria; each cell contains bacterial DNA. After fertilisation a human zygote contains an entire human genome; all the information necessary to form a human being. Of course, so does your hair and you have no problem cutting that off (which would have been a waaay better analogy).

Yeah, I apologize. I slept through microbiology. As such, I have a menial understanding of bacteria.

[black shadow]

i was just reading over this thread...

doesn't the whole discussion seem irrelevant when children are dying all over of hunger, dehydration, disease... not to mention all the civilian children in iraq

[xualse]

Originally Posted by black shadow

i was just reading over this thread...

doesn't the whole discussion seem irrelevant when children are dying all over of hunger, dehydration, disease... not to mention all the civilian children in iraq

No the conversation dose not seem irrelevant. We are on the topic of abortions (read:title), not starving african children.

[headcase]

Originally Posted by lurkingwolf

Yeah, I apologize. I slept through microbiology. As such, I have a menial understanding of bacteria.

but what about the potential? If you leave your hair alone, it'll stay as hair. But if you leave the zygote alone, you'll get a baby.

[Anarchist666]

In order to win this debate, there must be a common ground for both sides. I personally think that abortion is sick and disgusting, but at the same time I believe people should have the freedom of choice and live with the decisions they make. If abortion is made illegal, then women will go back alley and put their own lives at risk (so you "pro-lifers" are actually putting 2 lives at risk now). Also, unwanted children are more likely to become criminals. Now you pro-lifers can argue all you want saying "oh but if a pregnant mother is killed, why is it considered two murders?" Well, my response.....this is the same thing as rape and voluntary sex. It's rape when sex is unwanted and it's voluntary sex when it is wanted. So it becomes a crime when it's done against the person's will. Another argument by pro-lifers..."well what about all those future genreations of children who could've become scientists and leaders, and now their life is terminated by abortion" May i remind you that we've had people like Hitler, Stalin, Osama, Hussein, etc. who would've been nice to abort. (actually in fact, saddam hussein's mother wanted an abortion, so she purposefully banged her stomach into walls. but unfortunately he was born, and he became an evil dictator who started the genocide of kurdish villages) so there you have it, a pro-choice argument.

Now, for a middle ground: teens who are hormone-crazed should keep the baby as a punishment for their stupidity to have unprotected sex. Abortions should be more expensive for those who can afford it because i don't want to pay high taxes to fund this child killing.

Abortion is a privacy right implied in the constitution. If the second amendment allows us to have weapons (which also kill by the way), then abortion should also be a protected right. If we have the right to private property, what is more private than our own bodies right? I am a pro-choice person, but that does not mean I lack morals. We all have the freedom to choose. So if you believe that abortions are wrong, then don't get one. Stop trying to infringe on other's privacy rights.

For you pro-lifers who believe that abortion is immoral, may i remind you that war, and animal eating is also immoral. If you truly want to call yourself a pro-lifer, then don't support wars, don't support the death penalty, and don't eat meat. Otherwise, your arguments are only done in hypocrisy.

[LivingInTheDarkness]

there is also the discussion of rape abortion, if your girlfriend got raped and then found out she was preg, def. not by you. wouldnt you want her to get an abortion? but then again there is always adoption, yet adoption put them into a hard life. regardless its its a tough decision

[HarleyQuinn]

I honestly don't think men should have an opinion on this because their not the ones who would have a parasite inside them for 9 months.

Noone has the right to tell a woman what she can or can't do with her body.
Your "circumstantial" view is not original, its ignorant, and facist. That law would NEVER work, especially since most rapes can't be proven.

Not to mention abortions are AWESOME
Why bring some unwanted brat into this world when we are ridiculously overpopulated?
And don't give me that "adoption" crap, our foster care systems are ridiculously overcrowded and the kids in them are set up for failure, alot of them end up as street kids.

[Gitsie]

Abortion should definately be legal.

My main contentions of support are,

1. A woman shouldn't be forced to bring a baby resulting from rape into the world. It can be very psychologically damaging.

2. A woman shouldn't be forced to being an incest baby into the world because (obviously) the baby is likely to have physical and mental defects.

3. There are circumstances in which a fatal defect or disease is detected in the baby very early on. If you knew your child was going to be in pain it's whole life and die an ealy death wouldn't you want to spare them?

4. Some women who get pregnant at a very young age aren't even physically capable of having a baby. This happened to one of my childhood friends. She got pregnant at 13 and had an abortion because her doctor told her that it would be extremely dangerous to give birth because she was so small.

5. As Anarchist666 said, if abortions were made illegal women would go to back alley abortionists and, as the past shows, would have a great chance of death. Two lives lost for the price of one.


Those are some circumstances in which I think abortions are called for. However, I don't think that the legalization of abortion should be circumstantial. When a woman decides to get an abortion she is doing what she thinks is right for her body and her baby, we couldn't possibly understand what she is going through and what led to her decision.

I personally would NEVER get an abortion but who am I to tell another woman that she can't?

[Core Entropy]

Its not the governments decision to rule whether the person (and i dont say lady because there are some pretty messed up people out there) who has this creature inside of their body (as HarleyQuinn said "Parasite") which is unknowingly feeding off the person to survive it is classified as a parasite and the full effect of its removal must be allowed by the host. The government is breaking their own laws and regulations on health code safety by allowing unwanted parasites to flourish in the bodies of our women in society. A fetus is NOT classified to be an actual baby UNTIL it has taken its first breathe of oxygen. To try to fight what has been for such a long time and go against abortions should be criminal. Women, if you want an abortion i have two tips. Dry the motherfucker outta ya and boyfriend with lamp.

[LadyMakayla]

i think if i ever got pregnant, I would have an abortion right away, then kill the father.

[Steve_TPF]

Why? Unless it was rape, it's your responsibility too. Are you going to kill yourself straight afterward?

[Draven]

Ok I been reading over this thread and here is the thing. Whoever said if abortion was illegal miscarage would be manslaughter is an idiot. Here is why, miscarage can come about in several ways acidents, drug/alcohol use/abuse, premature labor and simply because the woman's body can't carry the child to term. You can not beat a biological fact such as what an individuals body can or can not do.

Now I'm against abortions for this reason; it murder pure and simple. If a woman can spread her legs to get pregnant and a man can stick it in to get her pregnant then they both have a responsibility to the life they created. Also with condoms, birth control etc there is no excuse for not being responsible enough to use them and not get pregnant in the first place.

Now I can understand certain reasons for an abortion, a loosing the child and/or the parent if birth is attempted situation, rape (depending on the psychological trama of the mother), incest (only if it was a matter of molestation or rape; two consenting adults or persons of sexual maturity and understanding have no excuse) and I don't see the act of killing a baby just because the child is retarded or sick.

Illness can be treated if not cured and mental retardation can not be measured until later on in life, late childhood early teens. My issue is this if we allow a girl of 15 or 16 (legal age of consent in some states) to have an abortion because she wanted to have sex and didn't take precautions to not get pregnant; we are essentually allowing age to be an excuse for not facing responsibility for their actions.

Also since it takes two people to create a life it should require both parents consent to end the life they are both responsible for, if not medical reason exists to do so. For myself, if a woman ever had an abortion and I was the father I shot the bitch dead without a second thought. It takes two people to create a life (except in cases a rape, yes I know) and so two people are responsible for that life. If a woman wants to shoulder the wieght of that decision alone then it justifies dead beat dads. I personally see no reason to justifiy not facing your responsibility...

[thewiserone10]

abortion is legal but yet big brother will notfund stem cells.
Aborted fetuses are being destroyed anyway of. we should use those stem cells instead of throwing them away and doin nobody any good