Is it time to start fighting back..?

[Draven]

Allot of people consider revolution and if you watch the news you know that the economy is about to go down and crash. The government is ready for martial law and all this should have been and can be averted. So are we to wait until martial law is declared and we are become the slaves? Or do we strike the first blow? If we are to strike the first blow then how?

This is a theoretical question, so no body go and shoot anyway because of it...

[CyberWar]

I can answer to this with a quote from Orvell's "1984" - "The proles will never begin to think without revolting and they cannot revolt without beginning to think." (correct me if I did not use the right words as I don't have the book in English)

The most likely scenario in case of a popular revolt will be an utter defeat. Masses, unlike the small clique of corporate leaders and their lackeys in power, can never achieve the same level of unity in views, goals and means to achieve them. We have all sorts of ideologies around - some advocate democracy, some - communism, some - nazism or fascism, some go for anarchy and so on. Some of us think that government can be overthrown by non-violent means, others want to fight with weapons. They, on the other hand, are united and solitary in their ideology and means to achieve their goals. Their ideology and goal is power, and means - any that the situation demands. All that we have is numbers and small arms. They have every high-tech weapon available, knowledge of breaking human will and sowing dissent, and professional armies to enforce their will.

They will use every man and woman of us that has the slightest doubt in the cause of revolution against us, an kill or imprison everyone they can who doesn't.

Is there anybody willing to risk?

[General Grim]

Rebel all you like, I'll sit at home sipping tea whilst 13 year olds make the "biggest bomb ever" and try to blow up the White House. These totalitarian vision will not happen in our life time, so rather than thinking about it I'd rather enjoy life how it is.

[Draven]

Cyber,

While I agree with you on the unity of the people, or lack there of, you bring up another question. That question being how would we cope with the world after such an attempt. Remember that Rome was defeated from both within and without. Following other past examples; small arms means nothing, but so to are large numbers of soldiers.

But, think of this how many armies have defeated enemies without outside aid in the modern era. The Cheks and the Aphgans both defeated the Soviets in battle. The Cheks did so without US support. History shows that such things are possible, and that a common enemy can unite different factions. Though once the common enemy is removed the different factions always fight among themselves.

Also I like the quote, its actuate for the most part and the point I was getting at. Most people don't think, most kids don't want to think or have too many delusions about being pimps with lots of hoes and slinging dope. We have enough info to allow us to keep thinking, in 20 years who knows. Thus the question remains...

Grim,

I might disagree with you on seeing a dictatorship in our lifetimes. I'm 27 and a former soldier, so being a 13 y/o isn't my issue only the academic question of are we within an era to fight back or simply do nothing. While I agree with Cyber that violence isn't the only option, it is still an option. So are saying you'll sit around sipping tea until it becomes and issue or do so reguardless of the issue?

Like I said its a theoretical question, the theory assuming that all apects are present now and at anytime this a police state is possible. Would you fight back now before its inception, during its inception or not at all? And if you strike how would you do so?

Somehow I get the idea you are dependant on the "system."

[General Grim]

The thirteen year old comment was a reference towards something said on this site. I typed what I typed because it's true, the world will not turn totalitarian within my lifetime.

What "system" do you speak of?

[Draven]

Originally Posted by General Grim

The thirteen year old comment was a reference towards something said on this site. I typed what I typed because it's true, the world will not turn totalitarian within my lifetime.

What "system" do you speak of?

The system I refer to is the system of control and dependancy that our society is based on. Many basic self-sufficient skills are over-looked and areas of free thought are already controlled and manipulated. The moment we lock ourselves into an system of control refering to transportation, media, commerse and commuication is the moment with risk dependacy on those systems to sustain us.

There is a saying in fencing that has been adapted by political anaylists "That those outside your circle can not be attacked." Meaning that those of us who can operate without those functions being suppied to us, are outside the systems that regulate and control those elements. Those who can maintain such things without outside aid, can inturn control their environments by controlling themselves...

Examples:
Element: Inside the System: Outside the System:
Food Buying Food Growing your own
Travel Driving Maintaining Fittness
Security Police & EMTs Self-Defense & Weapons Training
Medical Needs Doctors Learning First-Aid & Herbal Medicines

While any system of human interaction (and in return control) is based on limiting knowledge and making things easier (thus inspiring laziness through comfort) those within such a system become more dependant upon that system to survive.

This issue you seem to be avioding is that the elements for totalitarianism are slowly being put into place, now and that with a war on Iran oil prices could double in a day and the results could very bad for the rest of us. A piece on the history channel outlined many of these facts. So you may well see such things and simply have to deal with them even though you want to aviod even the theoretical academics of such a concept.

[General Grim]

I am fully capable to live without dependance on the so called "system" you describe. However, whilst it's here (and always will be) I'm going to take advantage of it, this impending doom that many people like to describe is just talk- something highly improbable. Therefore I don't trouble myself thinking about it, I just live life as it is.

Once again, fight back if you wish, I'll stay at home sipping my tea. In reality, even if the described totalrianism becomes reality you're too powerless to do much.

Note: I'm not avoiding anything, I'm just not discussing it because I find it incredibly boring, useless and without value or use to this site.

[Draven]

Originally Posted by General Grim

I am fully capable to live without dependance on the so called "system" you describe. However, whilst it's here (and always will be) I'm going to take advantage of it, this impending doom that many people like to describe is just talk- something highly improbable. Therefore I don't trouble myself thinking about it, I just live life as it is.

Once again, fight back if you wish, I'll stay at home sipping my tea. In reality, even if the described totalrianism becomes reality you're too powerless to do much.

Note: I'm not avoiding anything, I'm just not discussing it because I find it incredibly boring, useless and without value or use to this site.

Basically you are a person with little back bone IMHO. Not because of your opinion or belief but becuase you are declaring something worthless and implying that because you can not do something others will not be able to as well. If you found it so boring why even respond to the discussion? Because, you are waiting on someone to explain themselves so you can convense them they are just as helpless as you believe yourself to be.

I think I'd rather talk to your 13 y/o who wants to "build the biggest bomb in the whole world" lol...

[Skelton]

no its not the time yet for an revolution, and violence would be useless. think of todays military against the radicals. if it wouldn't be put down right away it would get worse. think of Iraq and the suicide bombings? i'm not saying we would be suicide bombers but it would be similar.

the revolution would have to wait for a major collapse (if oil went to 300$ a barrel overnight) causing mass panic or if the U.S. fell apart, which inevitably it will.

[Draven]

The problems with the military Vs its own people is this...

1) They are killing people like them...
Its harder to dehumanize an enemy who is like you. Racism is common in the military; its used to dehumanize the people the soldiers are sent to fight. Also cultural debasement another method of dehumanization can not be used to make the rebels seem less human.

2) They may even face friends & family...
Also most soldiers are from small town America, so the idea of fighting their friends and their family might cause soldiers on both sides to fail in doing their duty.

Now I don't care one way or the other. My plan is to escape, evade and watch the world destory itself, slowly or quickly either way. The fact that guerrilla units have been successful in Asia, South America and during the Cold War when they where proactive in their fighting is a seroius consideration. Of course so is the resources which the government would need to deal with its enemies with and without its boarders.

Lets face it the transition to marshall law would cause many enemy states to attack our overseas assets and possibly launch an offensive against. Plus all that technology has limitations, night vision goggles for example can be fooled with glitter and have a limited line of sight and low depth perception. Thermal Vision is limited by weather conditions and can be stopped with heavy snow fall. Also all those spy satalites have to have a location to find you and can't track multiple locations from a single satalite. Technology is used to scare us into submission but if it were so easy why haven't they found Benladen yet?

[General Grim]

Basically you are a person with little back bone IMHO. Not because of your opinion or belief but becuase you are declaring something worthless and implying that because you can not do something others will not be able to as well. If you found it so boring why even respond to the discussion? Because, you are waiting on someone to explain themselves so you can convense them they are just as helpless as you believe yourself to be.

I think I'd rather talk to your 13 y/o who wants to "build the biggest bomb in the whole world" lol...

I have little back bone? Ha. Mate, put it this way, if I had the effort to coercively debate to attempt to answer questions that don't matter then I wouldn't have left my school debating team last year. Just because I don't believe in your fantasy doesn't mean I'm helpless- you're so oblivious to my character. I debated for my school for 4 years, don't believe for one moment that I don't possess the capacity to retort against your ill-founded views.

I respond because you're trying to make me out as a person I am not, not to debate about the world as it is. You're incredibly ignorant if you believe you have any kind of driving force or power to fight against such great forces, take Zimbabwe as an example of what happens when you rebel. I think that 13 year old would suit you perfectly, enjoy trying to be an arsechanist.

EDIT: Respond as you will, but remember that I will not read anything that tries to change my views because you do not possess the debating skills nor the intelligence to do so.

[Trench Coat Crow]

its said that people can think that they can over throw the government without weapons. the nation could easily over throw the government. nearly 2/3 of the country owns a gun at an average of three guns to each of those persons. without us the government has nothing. of course not everyone would revolt against the government. We are not a free country. This government is so cruel. But the funny thing is if we would over throw the government then we would panic without system to run the country. then you get a group of people that would step up and take the responsibilty. then after some number of years it starts over again. the country probably would be to eagar to revolt again seeing as how it turned out in the end and would just countinue leading the lives they have. hell there are so many more free countries. europe almost all of them have more rights than we do. all of our rights today are being violated. sorry if i was just ranting just trying to explain something. it might be stupid since its coming from me. younger than you guys

[hoaxer]

Grim, you just let your pride distract you from staying on subject..
If your not interested in the topic, just dont reply... a post count is no excuse for spamming a thread.

A revolution could only be effective if it was initiated quickly, en masse, and widespread...

The government could all to easily send the ATF to exterminate 'Some new Cult'

Or even easier would be to label you as domestic terrorists and use the media as a tool against your revolution...

If i were you, id look into net neutrality... as the internets the only source of information that isnt controlled by the man, its the only thing that could get in its way...

However I'm not all too sure that an American Revolution would make too much difference in the world..

Remember the reference to 1984?

Well.... the true revolution would be a war between the social classes...

And the one class never to have won that war is the low class...

The proles have not yet risen..

[General Grim]

Or even easier would be to label you as domestic terrorists and use the media as a tool against your revolution...

Precisely. Whole heartedly agree with this statement. The "terrorist" loop-hole is a very powerful tool in keeping control.

[Trench Coat Crow]

i agree with you what ever your name is sorry i forgot it before i started typing. although some countries would look at the american government a lose. many would look at it as an advantage. from whatever point they stand from. other than that your right.

[db]

Whats with everyone wanting to overthrow the US government lately and more importantly what have you done in an attempt overthrow it besides talk about it? If you don't like the US government why don't you move to another country and revoke your US citizenship instead of trying to fight it? The US government isn't going to collapse simply by talking to it.

[Trench Coat Crow]

your right it won't collapse with us talking about it. its going to collapse all by itself. dont worry. it'll happen in a few years or so. once that happens it gonna be funny. people will start killing other people and doing terrible shit. i personally will just stay home. people will kill people cause there is nothing to stop them. we are in debt, we keep buying oil from forgien countries and the prices jsut keep rising. the country is in a shit state. i lived in a forgein country for 6 years and it better over in germany. im gonna laugh my as off once the country crushes under all this. and the reason we want to over throw the government is that this is their own damn fault. the government violates the rights the country was fighting for in the beginning. once you look at it the government is gonna crush at itll happen in our lifetime.

[hoaxer]

Violent revolution isnt the answer yet..

I think what america needs is a president who was never in the military..

A congress with an annual income under $20,000...

And marijuana legalized..

Thats the revolution america needs.

[Trench Coat Crow]

that may be right; however, the government won't legalize it because they can't put taxes on it. For what reasons I do not know. thats just the way it is. and the congress won't get that low of income. the government finds them too important to give them that much money. i think your right about what america need, but its not happening.

[hoaxer]

Marijuana is going to be legalized within the next decade... at least id bet everything i have on it...

The state of Missouri is currently making an effort to decriminalize it...

The fact is, whether you like it or not, about 35% of america openly smokes weed, and another 45% have, but won't only because of legal consequences.

The only reason congress gets such a high income is because CONGRESS VOTES ON THEIR OWN RAISES! Originally you'll find that congress was paid a 'modest' salary..

[db]

You know the only reason I think everyone on this board wants a revolution is to legalize pot. Gas prices keep going up going to lead to the destruction of the US government? You don't think gas prices in other countries is going up as well? That socialist Canada is paying over $5 a gallon for gas. I don't even think socialist California and New York have caught up with Canada's gas prices.

[hoaxer]

You know whats ironic?

If the government would issue out pot like they do commodities, they could seal the deal on the proles never revolting..

Or maybe thats why they're illegal.. so we'll have to waste our time & money acquiring our distractions.... What a way to distract the proles! Drugs!

[db]

To bad the revolution never grew bigger than legalize pot t-shirts.

[Trench Coat Crow]

Originally Posted by db

You know the only reason I think everyone on this board wants a revolution is to legalize pot. Gas prices keep going up going to lead to the destruction of the US government? You don't think gas prices in other countries is going up as well? That socialist Canada is paying over $5 a gallon for gas. I don't even think socialist California and New York have caught up with Canada's gas prices.

actually america is sitting on more oil than all the other countries. once they are dry we will start drilling and that will take ten years and once they are low on oil for gasoline they will buy it from us and that comes as an advantage to america. or we might just us it ourselves and they can suffer. either way makes no difference to the american government. im sure alot of people want pot legalized, but thats not why they want a revolt. We are tired of our rights being violated, the very rights that this country was found upo; therefore, making the us government hypocrites for taking away what they promised us.

[hoaxer]

Your speaking of course about our oil reserves..

You know john mccain wants to use those reserves immediately?

Rather than hold off total economic collapse, he would rather hold off paying $4.00 a gallon... although one might mean the other...

[Steve_TPF]

Originally Posted by Draven

Allot of people consider revolution and if you watch the news you know that the economy is about to go down and crash. The government is ready for martial law and all this should have been and can be averted. So are we to wait until martial law is declared and we are become the slaves? Or do we strike the first blow? If we are to strike the first blow then how?

You didn't mention which country you're talking about. I'll assume it's the US.

What makes you think the government is ready to implement martial law? This is done when a situation is too chaotic to be handled by conventional agencies and methods. (Such as the hurricane Katrina aftermath.)

"Striking the first blow" seems pointless, indeed suicidal. At present there is nothing to rebel against, and any act of violence would be swiftly put down.

Originally Posted by CyberWar

The most likely scenario in case of a popular revolt will be an utter defeat. Masses, unlike the small clique of corporate leaders and their lackeys in power, can never achieve the same level of unity in views, goals and means to achieve them.

True. In any case, unity means nothing against superior firepower, if it comes to that. But it wouldn't have to. If the government felt threatened they could cut off gas, power and water to major cities. Millions of people cold, hungry and in the dark. They would capitulate rapidly.

Originally Posted by Draven

There is a saying in fencing that has been adapted by political anaylists "That those outside your circle can not be attacked." Meaning that those of us who can operate without those functions being suppied to us, are outside the systems that regulate and control those elements. Those who can maintain such things without outside aid, can inturn control their environments by controlling themselves...

The only way to be independent of the "system" you refer to is to go bush, and live it rough. As such you would be no threat to anyone, and the government wouldn't care.

Originally Posted by Skelton

the revolution would have to wait for a major collapse (if oil went to 300$ a barrel overnight) causeing mass panic or if the U.S. fell apart, which inevitably it will.

The US has a sored reserve of 700 million barrels of oil, which could be released to reduce the effect of an oil-price crisis. Bear in mind that the government also requires the country to have a functioning economy.

Originally Posted by Trench Coat Crow

your right it won't collapse with us talking about it. its going to collapse all by itself. dont worry. it'll happen in a few years or so. once that happens it gonna be funny. people will start killing other people and doing terrible shit. i personally will just stay home.

Yes... until you run out of food, or your utilities get cut off. Or someone breaks down your door. Why don't you hide under your bedcovers for good measure? Oh, that's right - you can't reply. You were banned for being an idiot.

As I said, currently there is nothing to rebel against, nor any effective way of "fighting back", as Grim pointed out. If martial law were declared it would be force against force, and the army has all the advantages.

BTW, Draven: I'll tell you the same thing I tell others. Spelling, grammar, punctuation. You aren't the worst offender, but you claim to be 27. I expect better.

[hoaxer]

Steve, you said the US has 700 million barrells of reserved oil...

If you look into the daily consumption of the US youll clearly realize this isnt near enough to reduce the effect of the oil crisis.

Your crazy. Or just misinformed.

[Steve_TPF]

Did you even look at the link I provided?

Originally Posted by CBS News

Oil from the Strategic Petroleum Reserve, three underground salt domes in the states of Texas and Louisiana, has been used twice to respond to supply disruptions or the threat of such interruptions: Just before and during the first Gulf War in the early 1990s and in response to the loss of Gulf of Mexico oil after Hurricane Katrina in 2005. President Bill Clinton in 2000 made emergency oil available to relieve prices and Markey said prices then dropped 18 percent.

Sounds like a reduced effect to me. The reserves do exist, clearly in enough quantity to make a difference.

Us oil consumption is around 20 million barrels per day. Net oil imports are 12 million barrels per day. So, even if there was no oil being imported, the reserves would be able to make up the difference for almost two months. If all OPEC nations ceased supply for some reason, the oil reserves plus other imports would last 115 days. That's without rationing, which would surely be implemented in the event of a sudden drop in supply.

Read the link next time. I don't make things up.

[Draven]

Originally Posted by Steve_TPF

You didn't mention which country you're talking about. I'll assume it's the US.

What makes you think the government is ready to implement martial law? This is done when a situation is too chaotic to be handled by conventional agencies and methods. (Such as the hurricane Katrina aftermath.)

"Striking the first blow" seems pointless, indeed suicidal. At present there is nothing to rebel against, and any act of violence would be swiftly put down.

I was speaking of the US, that is correct. Well, I'm currently in a state where the National Guard has been fused with the Police. So West Virginia is indeed in a state of martial law, because as a judge has stated "The police are the military & can't be sued..." This is a clear violation of Congressional.

Also if martial law wasn't a factor why then has the US Military been conducting martial law drills with local police agencies? Also there is the rest of the stuff Bush has been doing to violate the law, which no one wants to address.

As for suicidal, how so? Bear in mind all that technology has a weakness and dependency on that technology is a weakness. Also there are several rebellions that did beat a technologically superior enemy, in Asia, South America and Eastern Europe. As for someone who was in the military, I can tell you the training is sub-par with less technologically adavanced eras.

Now, I ask this question on an Anarchy site, because the US was formally an Anarchist Republic. Thus I ask whether "anarchist" are willing to fight for freedom. If only to see what would be said.

[headcase]

These successful rebellions happened in areas where life was genuinely harsh and there was a real and serious oppression. That can't be said for the US or most of the Western world. What makes you think people will rise up from their cushy and prosperous lifestyle against some ill defined evil? And that's putting the logistics of a successful rebellion to one side.