America Deserved 9/11

[headcase]

To Lizzy and Pimpin, better start finding references to your stupid claims. If I remember correctly you've both already been banned for a week so it'll be three months next time.

[jrly]

To help pimpin:
Pearl Harbor advance-knowledge debate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

To help lizzy:
9/11 certainly did give the US an excuse to invade Afghanistan and then, somehow, they linked bin Laden to Hussein. And even though gas prices have drastically risen since the US invasion, Beyond, it wasn't about gas prices for the American people, it was for the oil corporations. All you have to do is look at their record high incomes for the last five years or so.

[Beyond]

Originally Posted by jrly

To help pimpin:
Pearl Harbor advance-knowledge debate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Wikipedia article, great cite.

In that same article it says:

All ten (committees) reported incompetence, underestimation and misapprehension of Japanese capabilities & intentions, problems resulting from excessive secrecy about crypto, and lack of adequate manpower for intelligence (analysis, collection, processing, ...).

We got caught, same as 9/11.

Sure, FDR wanted us to get into the war, but he didn't want to be the aggressor and he definitely didn't want to throw the first punch. We we're still in the wake of the largest economic depression that this country had ever seen. We weren't exactly chomping at the bit to go spend more money on a war that, up to that point, hadn't involved us whatsoever.

Another direct quote from your link states:

"Ten days before the Attack on Pearl Harbor", Henry L. Stimson, United States Secretary of War at the time "entered in his diary the famous and much-argued statement - that he had met with President Roosevelt to discuss the evidence of impending hostilities with Japan, and the question was 'how we should maneuver them [the Japanese] into the position of firing the first shot without allowing too much danger to ourselves.'"

That surely doesn't sound like the position of a man willing to let his entire pacific fleet become scrap metal, now does it? He had commanded US destroyers to shoot on sight any recon planes or ships that crossed into our waters.

That'd be the ideal situation. "Hey, they we're coming into our area and it wasn't just to say hi, we had to hit them before they hit us." Not, "Hey, we've got information that they want to attack and ruin our entire Pacific fleet, let's let them do it and then we can fight them." We wanted to get into a war but not at the expense of 1/3rd of our entire fleet. That's just utterly stupid.

Asserting that FDR had prior knowledge that Japanese we're going to attack and kill thousands of US military personell and citizens? That's just pure lunacy and it's a completely groundless argument.

Beyond, it wasn't about gas prices for the American people, it was for the oil corporations. All you have to do is look at their record high incomes for the last five years or so.

Who are these oil companies you speak of? And what ties to the U.S., specifically the Bush administration, do they have?

You better not respond Michael Moore propaganda.

[Fayle]

I see so many biased comments it is not even worth the time to put in.

If you do your research (This goes out to the dumbasses who just post on what they "think") Then you would realize we only invaded Iraq because they were working on nuclear projects and claiming it was nuclear power plants, in turn we didnt believe them and went in, as well they were housing terrorists of the U.S.

The innocent being killed i agree is absolutely terrible but it takes war to make peace.

Please read up on your information before posting.

[Pimpin4life30]

Originally Posted by LizzyReikoZ

I think Bush knew about it and needed support for the Iraq & Afghanistan wars. He's only trying to steal the oil in Iraq.

No hes trying to build some huge military base out there, so that the U.S. will have control over the mid east.

[headcase]

Originally Posted by Fayle

I see so many biased comments it is not even worth the time to put in.

If you do your research (This goes out to the dumbasses who just post on what they "think") Then you would realize we only invaded Iraq because they were working on nuclear projects and claiming it was nuclear power plants, in turn we didnt believe them and went in, as well they were housing terrorists of the U.S.

The innocent being killed i agree is absolutely terrible but it takes war to make peace.

Please read up on your information before posting.

I've done my research and that's a load of shit. Ironic, really. Next time don't just post what you "think". And read what I said to Pimpin and Lizzy about referencing your claims.

Originally Posted by Pimpin4life30

No hes trying to build some huge military base out there, so that the U.S. will have control over the mid east.

Originally Posted by headcase

To Lizzy and Pimpin, better start finding references to your stupid claims. If I remember correctly you've both already been banned for a week so it'll be three months next time.

Banned, three months.

[jrly]

To clear up Pearl Harbor, I don't necessarily agree with Roosevelt having foreknowledge of Pearl Harbor because I haven't done any research on it. And I only posted that to show that some believe that he had knowledge.

Originally Posted by Beyond

Wikipedia article, great cite.

I thought so. Cite this.

Originally Posted by Beyond

Who are these oil companies you speak of? And what ties to the U.S., specifically the Bush administration, do they have?

Here is Exxon-Mobile profit for the last few years.

Year-end 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 Total revenue 204 506 237 054 291 252 358 955 377 635 EBITDA 26 038 41 220 51 646 70 181 79 869 Net income 11 460 21 510 25 330 36 130 39 500 Total debt 10 748 9 545 8 293 7 991 6 645Cite. And this. This too.

And heres BP's
Year 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 Sales 180 186 236 045 294 849 249 465 265 906 EBITDA 22 941 28 200 37 825 41 453 44 835 Net Results 6 845 10 267 15 961 22 341 22 000 Net Debt 20 273 20 193 21 607 16 202 16 202Cite.

And heres the oil ties:
BBC News | AMERICAS | Analysis: Oil and the Bush cabinet
[GRRN] Bush Administration Oil Industry Ties

Originally Posted by Fayle

as well they were housing terrorists of the U.S.

Do you have proof that there were CIA agents were there, I always thought they were but I never saw any evidence that they were there. Cite you evidence man!

[LizzyReikoZ]

Originally Posted by Pimpin4life30

No hes trying to build some huge military base out there, so that the U.S. will have control over the mid east.

I really wouldn't doubt it. I think he's looking for any excuse he can find to invade Iran. It seems a little too convenient that big oil is behind Bush, and most of the world's oil reserves are in the middle east.

[Beyond]

Originally Posted by jrly

I thought so. Cite this.

So, going by your logic, Wikipedia is equal or slightly above Britannica (which has zero facts that would lead anyone to believe Roosevelt knew about the attack and let it happen).

Brilliant!

I'm still waiting for evidence that proves Roosevelt had advanced knowledge of the attack and specifically ignored it so that his entire Pacific fleet and thousands of country men and women would die all to gain an excuse to go to war. Stop citing redundant articles that talk about the possibility of it happening and start citing from direct reports, accounts, etc. that would link Roosevelt to the above actions.

Here is Exxon-Mobile profit for the last few years.

Year-end 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 Total revenue 204 506 237 054 291 252 358 955 377 635 EBITDA 26 038 41 220 51 646 70 181 79 869 Net income 11 460 21 510 25 330 36 130 39 500 Total debt 10 748 9 545 8 293 7 991 6 645Cite. And this. This too.

Again with the Wikipedia cites.

ExxonMobil (not Exxon-Mobile) is an American owned company and furthermore, nearly all of it's oil is imported from Venezuela, Saudi Arabia, and Mexico. Not Iraq.

Try again.

And heres BP's
Year 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 Sales 180 186 236 045 294 849 249 465 265 906 EBITDA 22 941 28 200 37 825 41 453 44 835 Net Results 6 845 10 267 15 961 22 341 22 000 Net Debt 20 273 20 193 21 607 16 202 16 202Cite.

And BP is a British company and they import nearly all of their oil from America (specifically Prudhoe Bay in Alaska), Russia, etc. About 10% of their oil comes from the middle east, with Iraq being one of the nations, so you may be on to something.

Let's look at the final links.

And heres the oil ties:
BBC News | AMERICAS | Analysis: Oil and the Bush cabinet

Ah yes, Halliburton. Shame on the Bush Administration for assigning the job of rebuilding Iraq's infrastructure to an American company with American employees and American investors. Those devils.

I'd like for you to find me a company that would have been AS qualified as Halliburton was at the time with a bid of LESS than the $2.5 billion proposal contract they had for Iraq. Protip: You won't be able to.

Furthermore, Halliburton habitually fucked up in Iraq. They fucked up SO much that they had to sell off any remaining subsideries way back in 2006.

And who's going to take over where they left off? Fluor and Dyncorp, two other American companies. Hurry, quick, find the ties they have to the Bush administration. You may be able to salvage your argument!

Oh, and Condoleeza Rice was once a director of Chevron. They get some of their oil from Iraq, but it's not a majority and it's definitely not their bread winner. In fact, they're in talks with the Iraqi ministry, not the Bush administration, to explore and tap into Iraqi oil.

Gosh, that just sounds so exploting. American companies trying to buy contracts from the Iraqis and furnish state of the art facilities that Iraqi people will work for. Man, we're totally doing some shady shit here!

[jrly]

Once again I am saying that I do not necessarily believe in Roosevelt knowing about Pearl Harbor before hand and yet I know you harp back on it. And look what I found in Britannica Online Encyclopedia(I am quoting it since I don't know if others will be able to see it without membership): but it is too long so if you can't see it just say and I will post it.
pearl harbor attack :: Supplemental Information -- Britannica Online Encyclopedia

Sorry about all of those numbers, it was supposed to be a chart thing and I don't know how it got linked wikipedia. Here are the charts(though it is in French).
Fiche d'entreprise
Fiche d'entreprise

My point was not that the US was getting oil from Iraq but the "lack" of oil raised the theoretical oil prices so companies like ExxonMobil and BP are making a lot more money.

My point with connecting people in Bush's administration to oil was that they would still be influenced by their ties and would thusly like to help to raise the oil companies revenue.

[Beyond]

Originally Posted by jrly

My point was not that the US was getting oil from Iraq but the "lack" of oil raised the theoretical oil prices so companies like ExxonMobil and BP are making a lot more money.

There is no "lack" of oil, only a greater demand than 5 years ago. China and India are demanding more and more oil each day. It's basic supply and demand.

I don't foresee it getting any better, either. More refineries and infrastructure are needed to keep up with the demand but with most of the globe looking for alternatives, it's not looking like a worthwhile investment at this point (from both a time and money standpoint).

My point with connecting people in Bush's administration to oil was that they would still be influenced by their ties and would thusly like to help to raise the oil companies revenue.

It wouldn't be the first time. Johnson did it back during the Vietnam war.

[FerretBone]

Originally Posted by Beyond

Ah yes, Halliburton. Shame on the Bush Administration for assigning the job of rebuilding Iraq's infrastructure to an American company with American employees and American investors. Those devils.

Gosh, that just sounds so exploting. American companies trying to buy contracts from the Iraqis and furnish state of the art facilities that Iraqi people will work for. Man, we're totally doing some shady shit here!

There is a leftwing paradigm that says if someone makes a profit, the local population must be exploited.

Reality
When companies come in and make big profits and give jobs, everybody benefits. Iraq did not have companies stomping in line to get these contracts.
Where do people get the notion that companies that make profit from Iraqi can’t make profits?