Liberal or Conservative?

[shetlan]

Originally Posted by GKoszegi

I'm a leftist extremist, and would like to see more communism around the world. Eventually we would get it right. And I know the argument that "It only works on paper" and I don't disagree, but can't we hope for equality? And some way to change that something like 10-ish percent of the worlds population control 90-ish percent of the wealth?

So you're the rat that keeps hitting the red button over and over despite being shocked each time he does it.

Communism has failed every time it's been tried, and there's absolutely no reason to believe that it will ever succeed. Holding to such an assumption despite the failures of the past is childish and foolish.

Incidentally, the concept of communism doesn't work on paper any better than it does in the real world - whom ever told you it worked on paper was every bit as foolish as the person who tells you it would "work eventually".

Incidentally, who ever decided that "equality" was a good thing? Do you realize that if everyone was equal in all aspects of life the computer you're sitting at wouldn't exist, and the idea of the technology to run it would be the fevered dream of a mad man. The medicines you take for granted (like Asprin) wouldn't exist. The concept of "taking a pill" to cure one's ailment would be the stuff of fairy tales.

The free-market system has created the highest standards of living (in all classes), the greatest technology, and the most wealth the world has ever seen. Communism on the other hand has created impoverished wasteland after impoverished wasteland.

Why are you shooting for communism again?

[GKoszegi]

I don't think things would not have been invented just because there was no capitalist company looking to make a buck. Why wouldn't people make things for the betterment of people in general as opposed to make more money than another?

The senseless hunt for material wealth isn't all it's cracked up to be, there are lots of poor people in the world in capitalist societies and outside of them as a result of Neo-colonialism. Which goes hand in hand with capitalism. Look at the Batista run Cuba for example, his people were starving and dieing because he had sold his people's land to American companies so he thrived and everyone else in Cuba suffered. While under Fidel the literacy rate skyrocketed the people got their land back, they have awesome medical and more people are being educated.

The people of Somalia have been reduced to piracy not just because of their own government but because a lot of their income came from fisheries and big capitalist nuclear facilities dumped waste into their waters.

Originally Posted by shetlan

and the most wealth the world has ever seen.

The most wealth a small percentage of the world has seen. It's great if you live in the biggest bully of a country in the world, but for almost everyone else it blows.

As a Canadian I worry everyday about what the US is going to do next. Or even what Canada is going to do! If we ever became like the US I'd have to leave. And I'm not bashing Americans, I know a lot of very nice ones, it's just the "liberator" mentality a lot of them have. I don't find most of the actions taken by the US to be very liberating for those involved. i.e. Desert Storm, Cuban Missile Crisis, Korea, Vietnam.

Regardless I can't change your views, nor would I like to, the differences make stuff interesting. Just like you always will believe in Capitalism I will always be an evil communist. :twisted:

[shetlan]

Originally Posted by GKoszegi

I don't think things would not have been invented just because there was no capitalist company looking to make a buck.

Then you're a naive fool, and apparently totally ignorant of the history of the products you use everyday - practically all of which where invented by someone who was trying to make a buck.

Originally Posted by GKoszegi

Why wouldn't people make things for the betterment of people in general as opposed to make more money than another?

Because they don't - they never have.
Greed is a integral part of the human condition, it's a survival mechanism; and like it or not, you are just as included in that as everyone else.

Incidentally, if you don't think progress, technology, and innovation as a whole are completely motivated by greed - you're an idiot.

Your computer wouldn't exist if Bill Gates and the folks at Intel wheren't looking to make a buck.
You wouldn't have Asprin if Felix Hoffman hadn't sold the formula - in an attempt to make a buck.
For that matter, the vast assortment of drugs available to today's patients are ALL the results of someone trying to make a buck.

Originally Posted by GKoszegi

The senseless hunt for material wealth isn't all it's cracked up to be, there are lots of poor people in the world in capitalist societies and outside of them as a result of Neo-colonialism.

Really? First off, "neocolonialism" isn't hyphenated, nor is it capitalized.

Secondly, the theoretical construct of neocolonialism is entirely a myth. The entire idea was created by African dictators who've stripped their countries of any resources. Blaming their economic suffering on "the west" keeps the people from realizing that the dictator in from of them is robbing them blind.

Originally Posted by GKoszegi

Which goes hand in hand with capitalism. Look at the Batista run Cuba for example, his people were starving and dieing because he had sold his people's land to American companies so he thrived and everyone else in Cuba suffered. While under Fidel the literacy rate skyrocketed the people got their land back, they have awesome medical and more people are being educated.

First off, the Cuban people are starving and largely unemployed. Those who do work are paid a meager $15-30 per month - essentially slaves to the Cuban ruling class.
Incidentally, computers, microwaves, and DVD players are all strictly outlawed in Cuba - though the new Prez 'might' withdraw the ban.

The claim that the Cuban people "got their land back" is total bull shit. The vast majority of the Cuban population lives in government housing. Add the fact that 75% of the buildings in Cuba where built before 1957, and you can imagine how sturdy and warm they are. . . thank God they got rid of the evil American construction companies - right after they built Castro's home.

There is massive shortage of food, clothing, and general houshold items that are plentiful in the US - but thank God they got rid of those evil US suppliers.

Originally Posted by GKoszegi

The people of Somalia have been reduced to piracy not just because of their own government but because a lot of their income came from fisheries and big capitalist nuclear facilities dumped waste into their waters.

The majority of Somalia's economy is fueled by farming (mostly bananas) and raising livestock. Another huge part of their economy is as a tax haven. They also have quite a bit of un-tapped oil and untouched gemstones. Much to the joy of the Somali people, Coca Cola opened a bottling plant there in 2004 - oh no, an American company provided jobs to an impoverished people!

Also, their fishing industry was suferring because of piracy and poaching - not because anyone dumped nuke waste in the water It's been recovering quite a bit as foreign governments have taken a larger interest in the pirate problem.

Originally Posted by GKoszegi

The most wealth a small percentage of the world has seen. It's great if you live in the biggest bully of a country in the world, but for almost everyone else it blows.

The US is a "bully"?
The country that provides billions of dollars of humanitarian aid to countries, that frankly are nothing but piles of dirt, is a bully? And what does that make Canada?

Originally Posted by GKoszegi

As a Canadian I worry everyday about what the US is going to do next. Or even what Canada is going to do! If we ever became like the US I'd have to leave.

Canada is likely the most free-market geared country on the planet (with the exception of your medical system) and it's the 10th richest nation on the planet - get going, you already are like the US.

Originally Posted by GKoszegi

And I'm not bashing Americans, I know a lot of very nice ones, it's just the "liberator" mentality a lot of them have. I don't find most of the actions taken by the US to be very liberating for those involved. i.e. Desert Storm, Cuban Missile Crisis, Korea, Vietnam.

Yeah, let's forget WWII, where we paid to rebuilt all of western Europe, that was bad to.

Originally Posted by GKoszegi

Regardless I can't change your views, nor would I like to, the differences make stuff interesting. Just like you always will believe in Capitalism I will always be an evil communist. :twisted:

I dont' think you're evil, I don't think you have a clue what you're talking about (which is further supported by the BS you just posted).

[Szero]

It's just sad to be young and a conservative. Think about it.

[shetlan]

Originally Posted by Szero

It's just sad to be young and a conservative. Think about it.

"If you're not a liberal when you're young, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative when you're old, you have no brain." - Attributed to Winston Churchhill

I'm just ahead of the curve kid.

[bloodlusta]

Originally Posted by Szero

It's just sad to be young and a conservative. Think about it.

I think most of us go through a liberal stage when we are young, but then we get a massive kick in the nuts from miss reality.

I think it is important to find the balance. Im pro gun, But I think gays should be allowed to marry, Im athiest but have no problem with other people having faith of exspessing their faith, Im not 100% about GW but I think we should try to limit our impact on the planet, I think if you work hard you can pull yourself out of poverty but I understand that it is not always that simple.

The problem with titles like liberal and conservative is that it can lock you into a certain was of thinking.