Liberal or Conservative?

[bloodlusta]

I have been talking to the American guy about this for a while now (he is a liberal). And I would like to know what you guys are, and why.

Liberals tell me I am conservative because of my views on guns, I want less government, feel that the government should not control what I can and can't do inside my house (within reason ofcoase) and thinking we don't need to be soft with our kids.

However Conservatives seem to think I am to liberal because of my views on religion, gay marriage, freedom of speech, my wish to look forward, and my general dislike of America.

Also In America what is the larger group liberals or conservatives?

[shetlan]

Humorously, there are more democrats than republicans, but there are more self-described conservatives than liberals. This is largely due to the conservatives being unhappy with the republican party and removing their registrations.

I'm a conservative.

Now why would freedom of speech be a pro-liberal issue? Liberals tend to believe in freedom of speech only when you agree with them; if you don't, you're an intolerant-neo con-nazi-hate monger (citing Ms California as a reference).

Incidentally, from what I've seen, you're a conservative (or more conservative than liberal).

[bloodlusta]

Originally Posted by shetlan

Now why would freedom of speech be a pro-liberal issue? Liberals tend to believe in freedom of speech only when you agree with them; if you don't, you're an intolerant-neo con-nazi-hate monger (citing Ms California as a reference).
liberal).

From what I have heard (from a liberal mind you) liberals are for freedom of speech while conservatives want to stop things like protesting and flag burning?

[shetlan]

Originally Posted by bloodlusta

From what I have heard (from a liberal mind you) liberals are for freedom of speech while conservatives want to stop things like protesting and flag burning?

Nobody cares about protesting - seriously nobody. Nobody's really cared about them for the last few decades. I havn't heard much about flag burning in the last . . . I think it's been eight years now. Flag burning tends to go along with protests; as stated, nobody cares about protests anymore. The conservative distain for flag buring is an over-exaggerated steriotype.

Funny thing though, peace-protests (liberals) seem to turn violent rather often - I've personally been beaten with signs by peace protestors on several occasions. Yesterday, something like 170 gay guys got arrested for getting violent at a rally against the court ruling on Prop8 - again liberals.

The last time there was a conservative protest (TEA partys on tax day) there wasn't a single arrest, and despite antagonizing visits by code pink and other such groups there was no violence.

Again, libs only like freedom of speech that they agree with. When I was in college (classic liberal area), I continued to voice my conservative views. This got me multiple death threats, attacked in the parking lots on various occasions, you get the idea.

[Atma]

Many people, despite their political preference, believe that freedom of speech should be limited at what they would consider "hate speech". Yes, liberals only like free speech when you agree with them. Some conservatives think that hate speech would be things like flag burning, although most will tell you that hate speech shouldn't be censored.

Liberals go on about how the right-wing is full of bigotry, narrow-mindedness, and censorship, when they're really the ones who practice it! For example, they criticize Fox News while supporting MSNBC.

I also hate how they like to "win" arguments by providing faux statistics, slogans, and the use of ad hominid.

I'd consider myself a libertarian, but for all intents and purposes will call myself a conservative, as I often do anyway.

[bloodlusta]

Originally Posted by Atma

Many people, despite their political preference, believe that freedom of speech should be limited at what they would consider "hate speech". Yes, liberals only like free speech when you agree with them. Some conservatives think that hate speech would be things like flag burning, although most will tell you that hate speech shouldn't be censored.

I agree with that 100%.

Everyone is for freedom of speech as long as it is what they want to hear.

Reminds me of a Russian joke.

America is not so amazing

Americans boast they can stand outside the white house and complain about Bush all they want, without repercussions.

Well its the same in Russia

In Russia we can stand outside the Kremlin and complain about Bush all we want without repercussions


EDIT: sorry did not realize how unfunny that joke was when typed up rather than said

[shetlan]

I think you missed Atma's point bloodlusta.

The concept of "Unacceptable Hate Speech" is entirely a liberal construct.

There's a well-known statement "Though I disagree with what you say, I'll defend to the death your right to say it." - Evelyn Beatrice Hall
This sums up the conservative view of freedom of speech both in theory and in practice.

Examples:
Liberals make fun of Bush's oratory blunders, they're expressing thier opinions.
Conservatives make fun of Obama's oratory blunders, they're racists.

Liberals call soldiers in Iraq 'baby killers' - they're expressing their opinions.
Conservatives disapprove of increasing taxes in an already stressed economy, they're racists and they're only saying that because they hate Obama.

[Atma]

shetlan got what I was trying to say, but looking back I would've worded my post differently. That quote about freedom of speech was exactly what I was looking for.

bloodlusta, it's still funny

[Ventanator]

To bloodlusta, sounds to me like you're a libertarian. That means that you beleive in liberty, to super simplify it.

Anyway, yeah. Liberals are probably the most un-liberal people on Earth. They want what they want, nothing else, even if the 'else' is better. Freedom of speech, right to bear arms, et cetera are all really good examples. I guess I'm a really right sided libertarian.

On a different note, I'm really suprised to see so many conservatives in one place...Obama will probably shut this shit down now....

[CyberWar]

Actually those words were said by Voltaire.

As for the joke on Russian politics, here's a better one:

Proof that Russia is an exemplary democracy - Russian Constitution guarantees freedom of speech. Of course, like with every other Constitution, no guarantees of freedom are provided after exercising the free speech.

---

I consider myself an ultra-conservative. This liberalism thing (which, as we all see, is but a bunch of hypocritic bull) has gone much too far. Conservative-minded people essentially act the same way as liberals do, with the difference that they make no effort to conceal their actual goals.

[shetlan]

Originally Posted by CyberWar

Actually those words were said by Voltaire.

The quote is quite often mis-credited to Voltaire himself, but he never said it. It was written by Evelyn Beatrice Hall in her book "Friends of Voltaire".

Originally Posted by CyberWar

As for the joke on Russian politics, here's a better one:

Proof that Russia is an exemplary democracy - Russian Constitution guarantees freedom of speech. Of course, like with every other Constitution, no guarantees of freedom are provided after exercising the free speech.

That's the thing that separated the United States from the rest. Back in the day, you could say whatever you believed with no fear. Now adays, everything is scanned through the filter of political correctness.

Originally Posted by CyberWar

Conservative-minded people essentially act the same way as liberals do, with the difference that they make no effort to conceal their actual goals.

I see differences between liberal people and conservative people in their everyday lives. There's a different attitude, a different mindset, and this difference changes their behavior.

As they say, a liberal is generous with other people's money - a conservative is generous with his own.

The liberal is always looking for a crusade - the conservative remembers how badly the fist nine went.

[bloodlusta]

Originally Posted by shetlan

That's the thing that separated the United States from the rest. Back in the day, you could say whatever you believed with no fear. Now adays, everything is scanned through the filter of political correctness.

That is a bit of an over statement. The US seems to have it in their head that they are the freest nation in the world and they were the only ones with freedom of speech.

America is a funny nation, its the only nation that is so liberal you are not allowed to discourage people from being gay while at the same time being so conservative it won't allow them to marry.

Why doesn't the US just split into two different nations? Then everybody wins.

In my view the US would be a lot better off if everyone was liberal. I would also be a lot better off if everyone was conservative, but is this constance cross over between the cons and the libs that is wreaking the nation.

[shetlan]

Originally Posted by bloodlusta

That is a bit of an over statement. The US seems to have it in their head that they are the freest nation in the world and they were the only ones with freedom of speech.

America is a funny nation, its the only nation that is so liberal you are not allowed to discourage people from being gay while at the same time being so conservative it won't allow them to marry.

Why doesn't the US just split into two different nations? Then everybody wins.

In my view the US would be a lot better off if everyone was liberal. I would also be a lot better off if everyone was conservative, but is this constance cross over between the cons and the libs that is wreaking the nation.

Correction:
The country is so liberal (publicly) that we encourage homosexuality, and so conservative (privately) that we won't let them marry.

As I said, these days everything needs to be run through the filter of political correctness.

The question fo the US splitting into two nations has been brought up many times before. Liberals keep dropping the issue when they realize that the military force that protects them would leave with the conservatives.

[french tickler]

I like to consider myself independent/libertarian. The things being stated here about liberals and conservatives are very true. I would venture to say that they are both equally ignorant. There are certain parts of the constitution they like, and there are parts that they consider completely irrelevant just because it is not in sync with what they want.

I would be considered conservative because of my opinions on guns, that's about it though. I wouldn't be described as liberal in most aspects, but liberal and conservative are things that only others would describe me as. I like to compare Libs and Cons to Nazis and Soviets, they both tend to support tyranny and offer freedom only to those who agree with them.

I can't really word out my thoughts, but seriously, Libs and Cons are equally horrible. That is why I identify myself as libertarian/independent. I like the idea of true and absolute freedom, I feel that the government should not interfere with our lives so much and that people have personal liberties that should be guaranteed whether I agree with them or not.

I don't think America would be better off as entirely liberal, or conservative. America will be better off when the two power-hungry tyrant parties fade away (not that it will ever happen), and a new party that supports true liberty takes its place. That's all just fantasy though. It won't happen and America is all too happy being the hypocritical, openly liberal, and privately conservative political cesspool that it is.

Also, I apologize for sounding like a bigot. To make my long post short, I hate dems (libs)and reps (cons), they are both hypocrites.

[shetlan]

Originally Posted by french tickler

I like to consider myself independent/libertarian. The things being stated here about liberals and conservatives are very true. I would venture to say that they are both equally ignorant. There are certain parts of the constitution they like, and there are parts that they consider completely irrelevant just because it is not in sync with what they want.

Not true. As many people do, you're confusing "Liberal" and "Conservative" with "Democrat" and "Republican".

A Conservative, by definition, is loyal exclusively to the Constitution - and therefore can't (by very definition) oppose it. If one opposes the constitution in whole or in part, he is by definition not a conservative.

On the other hand, a "republican" can have any view he should choose. The title of republican is a matter of which box you check - the title of conservative is based on a way of life and thought.

Originally Posted by french tickler

I would be considered conservative because of my opinions on guns, that's about it though.

If the only issue you agree with conservatives is gun laws - then you're not a conservative by any stretch of the imagination.

From what you've said there/\, you would be a "Pro-gun Independant", but from what you say three paragraphs down, you're a conservative.

Originally Posted by french tickler

I wouldn't be described as liberal in most aspects, but liberal and conservative are things that only others would describe me as. I like to compare Libs and Cons to Nazis and Soviets, they both tend to support tyranny and offer freedom only to those who agree with them.

Again, not even close to being true. You're still thinking in the shallow terms of "Republican" and "Democrat". If you think that conservatives try to deny freedom to people who oppose them, then your understanding of what a conservatives are is vastly lacking.

Originally Posted by french tickler

I can't really word out my thoughts, but seriously, Libs and Cons are equally horrible.

Really? What have Conservatives done to make them "horrible"?

Originally Posted by french tickler

That is why I identify myself as libertarian/independent. I like the idea of true and absolute freedom, I feel that the government should not interfere with our lives so much and that people have personal liberties that should be guaranteed whether I agree with them or not.

So, you agree with the (paraphrased) credo of conservatism. Pick up a copy of "Liberty and Tyrrany: a Conservative Manifesto" by Mark Levin - you'll find you're more conservative than you think.

Originally Posted by french tickler

I don't think America would be better off as entirely liberal, or conservative. America will be better off when the two power-hungry tyrant parties fade away (not that it will ever happen), and a new party that supports true liberty takes its place.

Again, you're under the misguided assumption that republicans are always conservative and democrats are always liberal; and that the terms can be interchanged.

The political parties themselves (republican and democrat) are meaningless. Those who consider themselves conservatives tend to condemn both parties, as neither serves the best interest of the nation.

Originally Posted by french tickler

That's all just fantasy though. It won't happen and America is all too happy being the hypocritical, openly liberal, and privately conservative political cesspool that it is.

The problem with America is that we've been conditioned to believe that it's not okay to be a conservative - so we pretend we're not. On the other hand, when the ballot is secret and we can say what we believe with annonymity, we're far more conservative than we are when we're in the open.

Political correctness is the problem - and political correctness is an entirely liberal construct.

Originally Posted by french tickler

Also, I apologize for sounding like a bigot. To make my long post short, I hate dems (libs)and reps (cons), they are both hypocrites.

Here's a synopsis of your problem understanding American politics.
Youv'e decided that:
Liberal = Democrat
Conservative = Republican
Democrat and Republican are boxes you check on a ballot; Conservative and Liberal are belief systems.

You'll have trouble finding conservatives in either party.

[Vertigo]

The fact is, Liber al and Conservative have traded places somewhere between now and the sixties, when there were real liberals. Liberal used to mean pushing the government out of your private life, removing false boundaries and living free. Now it means making sure every one else likes you. Conservative used to mean preserving the ways of the past with all of it's bigotry, hate and attached nonsense. Now it means conserving the rights of the people.

I consider myself a moderate conservative. I live outside the loop of extremism, where liberals and conservatives and anyone else who has a label for themselves live. No matter what you get extreme about (suddenly I'm talking like the cool kid from the ninties), it's still wrong. Extremes leave too much room for exclusion. Even that sick demented pederast down the street has a place in society, we just have to find it. (Bottom of a lake might be a good place to start.)

Despite my Lilo Pellaki ending to that paragraph, I'm not going to the extreme of saying we should accept him for who he is and help him grow out of his horrid former existence. Even I have limits.

No, I live in the small empty space between the circle of extremes. And while the Liberals and Conservatives turn their backs on me to fight one another, I pick their pockets and slink away snickering.

[french tickler]

Thank you shetlan, I actually mean that too, not being a wiseguy. Yeah I really wasn't distinguishing between party and beliefs there. So yes, I am conservative but not republican. So I don't like dems and reps, the parties don't believe in anything but being on top, right?

Libs and Cons however, well I still don't like Libs. I still think libs are tools, so I guess I have no issue calling myself conservative anymore because it doesn't really mean I support any of the parties. As far as party affiliation goes, libertarian still seems to be my thing though, right?

[otisct]

i myself am a consevative, i believe fully in the right to bear arms and being soft with your kids is a mistake however Bloodlusta i think of you as more of a libertarian u have both conservative and liberal views but you dont take the side of either one completely

[Draven]

I am Conservative-Minded but I tend to be Independant; I don't care about Democrat or Republican. I think at this point more liberals out number the conservatives, at least when it comes to being vocal.

Both conservativism and liberialism have been highjacked in the last few decades. Modern liberalism as been influenced and infused with Socialism; concepts like "hate speech" & "racial justice" are used to hide Socialist policies.

[Ventanator]

Originally Posted by french tickler

As far as party affiliation goes, libertarian still seems to be my thing though, right?

Don't ask other people what YOUR beliefs are.

Have any of you head Glen Beck's explanation of conservative and liberal lately? It's pretty good, you should go watch it.

[shetlan]

Originally Posted by Ventanator

Don't ask other people what YOUR beliefs are.

Have any of you head Glen Beck's explanation of conservative and liberal lately? It's pretty good, you should go watch it.

Glenn Beck is what's called a "back-bencher" - his ideology changes with whomever is signing his checks. If you want to hear from a real conservative, look at Mark Levin's "Liberty and Tyranny".

[Djaqaverlerron]

I'm a Liberal Independent

Pro Gay Marriage
Anti Abortion
Tougher Regulations on guns - Rifles and hand guns and shotguns = straight.....AK47s and assualt Rifles = bad

I personally beleive in global warming (NOT CLIMATE CHANGE) due to Co2 and methane gas admissions coupled with deforestation.



This is what I beleive but do I act on it.....Do I vote, or drive a prius, or protest, FUCK NO

I'm ONE person I Can't change shit. I don't even fucking bother doing shit about it. Ya I'll watch the news and Hope that this Health Care bullshit there trying to start up doesn't go down. But I have no control of it. I can only pick a side and if my side doesn't win I better HOPE the other side was the right choice.



Theres less then a thousand people in this world who hold ANY power. I am not one of them.

[shetlan]

Originally Posted by Djaqaverlerron

Tougher Regulations on guns - Rifles and hand guns and shotguns = straight.....AK47s and assualt Rifles = bad

And why would you think something that stupid?

I'd like you to consider this question:
"Why are the people given the right to keep and bear arms?"
and
"Why is the second amendment often called 'the enforcement clause'?"

Additionally, most guncontrol advocates seem to think that fewer guns means less crime - despite the fact that this has been proven false on multiple occasions. I'd also like you to note that most guns used in crimes are handguns and shotguns - the weapons you don't think require regulation.

Third, I'd also like to point out the meaningless distinction of "assault rifle". Do you even know what an assault rifle is?

Originally Posted by Djaqaverlerron

I personally beleive in global warming (NOT CLIMATE CHANGE) due to Co2 and methane gas admissions coupled with deforestation.

I'll assume you meant "gas emissions" - unless the methane is going to see a movie.

Co2 is a naturally ocurring substance the exudes from practically every animal on the planet - and it always has.
We exhale it, plants breath it in, plants exhale oxygen, and it starts over. There is absolutely no evidence that Co2 has anything to do with global warming.

Deforestation is largely a myth. Logging companies (the people often condemned for deforestation) plant new trees after they cut down the old ones; they have to. If they don't make more trees, what will they cut down later?

If you really want to stop deforestation - you should kill beavers. . . Damn beavers, cutting down trees and contributing nothing of their own. SAVE A TREE - KILL A BEAVER!!!

Originally Posted by Djaqaverlerron

This is what I beleive but do I act on it.....Do I vote, or drive a prius, or protest, FUCK NO

Thank God

Originally Posted by Djaqaverlerron

Theres less then a thousand people in this world who hold ANY power. I am not one of them.

And yet, the founders meant for you to be.
"When the government fears it's people, there is liberty. When the people fear their government, there is tyranny."

[Voodoo5]

Even if CO2 didn't contribute much to the global climate, I do think that the sources of CO2 and other "greenhouse gasses" can be safely labeled dangerous
After all, it's well established that vehicle exhaust and industrial air pollution
(Chinese coal plants are a stellar example) cause mild to rather serious respiratory damage and most is likely responsible for an unknown variety of assorted disorders to those who have had enormous exposure before birth.
so whether it is heating the world up or not, it's surely going to harm a number people in the near future (over time of course). And trying to get everyone to buy cheap respirators, or simply ignore it and try to slowly change policy and make everybody happy is just an ineffectual, band-aid solution.

As for lib vs. cons I think that it should be regarded in non political (totally non partisan) terms. A con wants things to stay the way they are (in my rather literal definition) and a lib wants less governmental control and whatever they want.

One subject that was touched upon was self professed liberals who are actually conservative. This is a problem because now we have a bunch of
new-age money lovers who pick the "team" they find coolest.
I don't know about you, but even some cons in my area are quite frustrated with overly bureaucratic, fumbling system of management that, like all regions in the world, drives everybody (or maybe some) bankrupt, facing the death penalty in a foreign nation, disgraced, or seriously inconvenienced by all sorts of paperwork gaffes or absurdities.
Except for the birth of the industrial revolution and the leisurely boom of postwar2... what has the modern concept of ECONOMY done for us?

Economy is now a weapon for nations trying to preserve abusive regimes, economy, and a now trivial system of stocks which are decided not by a company's performance, but by it's results compared to a bloody forecast makes you rich one day and penniless the next no matter how many frantic sales you make. I oppose today's notion of economy, and those I define as conservative are the ones who keep faith, and continue to gamble in a fixed game with our money.

also... though it need not come in up to three hundred years (it may come to more easily) some form of libertarian or controlled anarchist state of living should at least be considered the end goal for human civilization, we don't need it NOW, we just want people to realize the obvious... even if it turns out to be a dream, that this is where we, at some point should find ourselves standing (prehaps a worldwide objective would propel people to get things done). ps. NEED health care reform worldwide (maybe not europe) ugently! the more it is delayed, the more painful the transition will be (the US should note, canada is not communist and our system is screwed because of staff shortages, lack of organization, and low funding, all of which a richer, and hopefully more organized nation could fix plus all the canadian doctors went to the US to get paying jobs so the bellyachers should just do their homework)

terribly sorry for the length, I will gladly delete this if you wish ( or your just sick of seeing this message all the time)

[shetlan]

Originally Posted by Voodoo5

Even if CO2 didn't contribute much to the global climate, I do think that the sources of CO2 and other "greenhouse gasses" can be safely labeled dangerous

Based on what - the junk science behind global warming?

Originally Posted by Voodoo5

After all, it's well established that vehicle exhaust and industrial air pollution
(Chinese coal plants are a stellar example) cause mild to rather serious respiratory damage and most is likely responsible for an unknown variety of assorted disorders to those who have had enormous exposure before birth.

Let's clarify what you just said.
It's been established that pollution can cause serious unknown dosorders to those who are exposed before birth. . . I'll leave you to figure out what you where trying to say.

I find it funny that you're comparing vehicle exhaust and "industrial pollution" with a coal plant - talk about apples and oranges.

I'm still waiting to hear of cases of otherwise healthy people who died from daily exposure to (of all things) car exhaust.

I'm sure you havn't bothered to study this to any degree (evidenced by your arguments), but here's an interesting factoid for you: Annually, a car emits 2.5 times more CO2 and Methane than a cow.
A cattle rancher would have thousands of cows in close proximity on a daily basis, and yet the emissions don't kill them. I wonder why?

Fat Knowledge: Cows vs. Cars: Greenhouse Gases

Originally Posted by Voodoo5

so whether it is heating the world up or not, it's surely going to harm a number people in the near future (over time of course). And trying to get everyone to buy cheap respirators, or simply ignore it and try to slowly change policy and make everybody happy is just an ineffectual, band-aid solution.

Again, let's clarify what you just said:

It's going to harm people over time in the near future.
Does it hurt talking out of both sides of your mouth like that?

Let me point out another interesting factoid that you've likely never come across. Look at every predicted apocalyptic disaster of the last century - you know what they all have in common? They where all going to happen "in 50 years". Would you like to know why? It's soon enough that it's scary, and far enough away that the quacks won't need to own up to making it up.

In other words - "over time in the near future".

Originally Posted by Voodoo5

As for lib vs. cons I think that it should be regarded in non political (totally non partisan) terms. A con wants things to stay the way they are (in my rather literal definition) and a lib wants less governmental control and whatever they want.

So you're trying to re-define the terms because you don't understand the actual definitions (evidenced by the entire paragraph below).

Beyond that, the rest of your post is unintelligible gibberish.

Originally Posted by Voodoo5

One subject that was touched upon was self professed liberals who are actually conservative. This is a problem because now we have a bunch of
new-age money lovers who pick the "team" they find coolest.
I don't know about you, but even some cons in my area are quite frustrated with overly bureaucratic, fumbling system of management that, like all regions in the world, drives everybody (or maybe some) bankrupt, facing the death penalty in a foreign nation, disgraced, or seriously inconvenienced by all sorts of paperwork gaffes or absurdities.
Except for the birth of the industrial revolution and the leisurely boom of postwar2... what has the modern concept of ECONOMY done for us?

Economy is now a weapon for nations trying to preserve abusive regimes, economy, and a now trivial system of stocks which are decided not by a company's performance, but by it's results compared to a bloody forecast makes you rich one day and penniless the next no matter how many frantic sales you make. I oppose today's notion of economy, and those I define as conservative are the ones who keep faith, and continue to gamble in a fixed game with our money.

also... though it need not come in up to three hundred years (it may come to more easily) some form of libertarian or controlled anarchist state of living should at least be considered the end goal for human civilization, we don't need it NOW, we just want people to realize the obvious... even if it turns out to be a dream, that this is where we, at some point should find ourselves standing (prehaps a worldwide objective would propel people to get things done). ps. NEED health care reform worldwide (maybe not europe) ugently! the more it is delayed, the more painful the transition will be (the US should note, canada is not communist and our system is screwed because of staff shortages, lack of organization, and low funding, all of which a richer, and hopefully more organized nation could fix plus all the canadian doctors went to the US to get paying jobs so the bellyachers should just do their homework)

terribly sorry for the length, I will gladly delete this if you wish (your just sick of seeing this message all the time)

[bloodlusta]

Originally Posted by shetlan

I'm sure you havn't bothered to study this to any degree (evidenced by your arguments), but here's an interesting factoid for you: Annually, a car emits 2.5 times more CO2 and Methane than a cow.
A cattle rancher would have thousands of cows in close proximity on a daily basis, and yet the emissions don't kill them. I wonder why?

Intesting point there. In NZ the green party (ultra liberal) want to decrease the size of the NZ dairy herd because of the amount of methane the cows produce. They also wanted to put a "fart tax"on farmers to try and offset the "pollution" their cows cause through farting. Because appaerntly its really cows who are to blame for "global warming".

[shetlan]

Originally Posted by bloodlusta

Intesting point there. In NZ the green party (ultra conservative) want to decrease the size of the NZ dairy herd because of the amount of methane the cows produce. They also wanted to put a "fart tax"on farmers to try and offset the "pollution" their cows cause through farting. Because appaerntly its really cows who are to blame for "global warming".

And yet, cows have been farting for millenia and this is supposedly just becoming a problem right now.

PS: Conservative must mean something totally different in NZ.

[bloodlusta]

Originally Posted by shetlan

And yet, cows have been farting for millenia and this is supposedly just becoming a problem right now.

PS: Conservative must mean something totally different in NZ.

Whoops my bad I meant ultra Liberal sorry

[Shepherd]

Not in any particular conscious order:

• I own guns, but do not think that a common citizen has the need to own automatic weapons or explosive devices such as grenade launchers.
• I believe that women have the right to choose what happens to their bodies, not politicians nor the religious conservatives.
• I believe that federal governemnt should govern, but that politicians cannot be trusted to do their jobs. I also think that the current tax system in the U.S. is unfair to everybody, but that the politicians prefer it that way.
• I believe that the polarization of American dialogue is the fault of the press in all of its forms.
• I do not like narrow-minded people of either the liberal or conservative ilk. But they have the right to their opinion as long as it does not infringe upon my rights.
• I vote in every election, and encourage others to do so. If you do not vote, don't tell me what is wrong in the political arena.
• I am a veteran of the USMC, but feel that you have the right not to serve in the military. If you do not serve your country in some way, then do not tell me what I've done wrong when I serve.
• I believe in God, but do not wear my faith on my sleeve as either a crutch nor a banner. And I believe that you have the right to believe as you wish, as long as you do not infringe upon me. Religion should not be taught nor encouraged at public school. Do you really want the government teaching your children about religion? Teach them at church and at home.
• I refuse to enter into the 'nurture or nature' argument in the homosexual debate. They have rights, but I'm not sure that I agree how many rights they should get.
• I believe in capital punishment, but do not believe that a 17 year old is an adult. I know a few 25 year olds that still act like children. Having said that, when a crime is commited, punishent must be provided.

I volunteer at local charities, I donate money to select charities, I do not try to get "tax rebates" for my donations, and try to donate anonymously when possible. I do not consider myself either conservative or liberal. I consider myself a true American. I was raised until these ideals and try to follow them faithfully.

[bloodlusta]

I think those are some great morals to live by. Eppesally those about religon and firearms. I have no problem with religous people as long as they keep it to themselfs. Same with gays. I don't have a problem with them as long as they keep it to themselfs.

I must ask about this concept of "true American" and what exactly is meant by that? for example could someone from france who lived in America become a "true American" or is it a heritgae thing? in Nz a "true kiwi" simply refures to someone who likes beer rugby and the bush. So Im trying to understand how the concept of "true American" works