Mexican Drug War - The Guns

[shetlan]

I'm getting sick of hearing about the US being the ones arming the Mexican cartels in these freakin' drug wars.

Drug cartels have been getting military hardware as long as there have been cartels, why do people assume that the Mexican cartels are any different?

Here's a picture I got a kick out of:
What is that? As far as I can tell, it's a homemade machine gun with a homemade magazine - I bet that came from the US to

Let's go over another picture:


Let's see, we have (left to center)
Fragmentation Grenades
Full Auto Assult Rifles
Grenade Launchers
And the appropriate grenades for said launchers

Why is it assumed that any of this stuff came from the US?
The frags shown aren't the kind US troops use - and they're sale is illegal in the US anyway.
Fully Automatic weapons have been banned in the US since the 1930s - unless you have the proper exemptions.
Grenade Launchers aren't openly available in the US, nor are the grenades used in them.

Here's a good one:

I'll just bet that belt-fed machine gun came from the US to. I believe it's a German design, but who cares.

My point here being that the United States doesn't have most of these items available legally - so how is it supposedly our fault? Or the fault of our "loose gun laws" for that matter?

Look at Africa, every warlord there has guns, ammo, and plenty of grenades; and many of them don't have the money or rescources that the cartels have. They buy their weapons from black market arms dealers and countries that don't care about UN sanctions (like Russia and China) - why wouldn't the cartels do the same?

I gotta' tell you, if I was looking to buy military grade hardware to equip an army, the US is almost the last place I would look. The Sudan, Iran, China, all far better choices (I'd bet even money that 1/2 the weapons in Mexico are stamped with Norinco's logo).

[bloodlusta]

Its just another excuse for the liberal to put tighter restrictions on guns.

A lot of the guns are coming from the US, that is a fact and a few pictures does prove otherwise, however the guns they are getting are not from legal dealers so how tightening the gun laws will help is anyone guess.

[db]

Originally Posted by shetlan

I'm getting sick of hearing about the US being the ones arming the Mexican cartels in these freakin' drug wars.

I have no doubt we are arming them, but by we I mean the government.

I gotta' tell you, if I was looking to buy military grade hardware to equip an army, the US is almost the last place I would look. The Sudan, Iran, China, all far better choices (I'd bet even money that 1/2 the weapons in Mexico are stamped with Norinco's logo).

Why buy when you don't have to? Just tell the US your against some country or dictator and put on a little show and we'll probably send you the stuff for free. Just like Osama had the US pay for some of his weapons against the Soviet Union in Afghanistan or arming the Iraqi government where terrorists have already infiltrated these organizations.

[groundzero_1]

Haha, love that second pic.

Originally Posted by bloodlusta

Its just another excuse for the liberal to put tighter restrictions on guns.

That is completely true. Liberals just want to ban guns, they have forever and they will keep making up stories until they get what they want.

Originally Posted by bloodlusta

A lot of the guns are coming from the US, that is a fact and a few pictures does prove otherwise, however the guns they are getting are not from legal dealers so how tightening the gun laws will help is anyone guess.

Now I agree that the US has something to do with the guns, but it can't be much. Seeing as the US is the nazi dictatorship of the world (in a political sense, I actually love America), being in the US with illegal weapons is a long jail sentence, and no matter how stupid you think gun runners are, they're smart enough to know not to deal in the US.

Also, tightening gun laws is stupid anyway. The people who want guns are still going to get them, but the people who need them won't be able to get one. Just look at weed. The people who want weed can get it, but the people who need it for medical purposes (in many states) can't.

Originally Posted by db

I have no doubt we are arming them, but by we I mean the government.



Why buy when you don't have to? Just tell the US your against some country or dictator and put on a little show and we'll probably send you the stuff for free. Just like Osama had the US pay for some of his weapons against the Soviet Union in Afghanistan or arming the Iraqi government where terrorists have already infiltrated these organizations.

This isn't Lord of War, yes the government will fund wars in which the country who they are funding is also an enemy of the US, this lets the US win the war without actually fighting. But to say that the US is funding highly illegal drug wars which greatly effect their own country, seems stupid.

[shetlan]

Originally Posted by bloodlusta

A lot of the guns are coming from the US, that is a fact and a few pictures does prove otherwise, however the guns they are getting are not from legal dealers so how tightening the gun laws will help is anyone guess.

Closer to the truth would be "Alot of the tracable guns are coming from the US." Which is what the media should be saying. According to the ATF:

29,000 weapons where recovered from drug cartels (2007-2008)
11,000 where submitted to the ATF for tracing
6,000 could be traced (5,000 couldn't)
5,114 could be traced to the US

90% of the 6,000 tracable weapons - which is where the media gets the percentage.

In reality it's only 17% of the guns recovered.

[db]

This isn't Lord of War, yes the government will fund wars in which the country who they are funding is also an enemy of the US, this lets the US win the war without actually fighting. But to say that the US is funding highly illegal drug wars which greatly effect their own country, seems stupid.

Yes, the government will fund wars that have our interests in mind, but these groups will equally use our government to push their agenda as well. A lot of these groups have hated and distrusted America long before, but they saw us as a lesser of the two evils at the time and a good source of funding while we saw them as a good candidate to fill body bags with.

The question becomes how do these groups, usually in poorer countries raise their money in order to fund their little war until our government see them as serious enough that they should get funding from us. Since a lot of these groups aren't governments so the government know damn well they aren't out their raising money from taxing the people. They know these groups engage in illegal activities such as kidnappings for ransom, drug sales, and arms trading to fund their wars yet they turn a blind eye to it to push our governments agenda.

Now what happens to these weapons and funding that we gave to these groups when the war is over and the greater evil is destroyed? We become the enemy and they use our weapons against us and pawn the excess guns off to the highest bidder along with the drugs they grow and manufacture to other criminal organizations to further fund their agenda.

Then our government sits there acts like a bunch of jack asses wondering well where did the cartels get the weapons from like it is some great mystery. When they know damn well they funded and armed groups that engaged in similar practices and with similar groups that our government publicly announces they don't approve of. The only difference is now that the government has nothing to benefit by dealing with these groups or do they?

So the government turn against them and by turning against them the government keeps our citizens happy through defense jobs and the sense that we need protection from these bad organizations. In the end the government tries coming out looking like the hero and savior for the problem they helped create.

[FerretBone]

[FerretBone]

[FerretBone]

“More than 90 percent of about 11,000 guns tied to violence in Mexico's drug wars came from the United States, but those weapons were handpicked for tracing by Mexican authorities.
The Mexican federal attorney general's staff recently acknowledged that Mexican authorities had seized 35,943 arms, including 2,800 grenades, since the crackdown against the drug cartels began in December 2006.
That means Mexico provided the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives with serial numbers for less than a third of the weapons that were seized.” - BATF

The 90 percent myth was overblown, because Mexico did not provide the ATF with serial numbers for all the weapons it seized. Mainly because it couldn't.

“The fact is, only 17 percent of guns found at Mexican crime scenes have been traced to the U.S.
What’s true, an ATF spokeswoman told FOXNews.com, in a clarification of the statistic used by her own agency’s assistant director, “is that over 90 percent of the traced firearms originate from the U.S.”

A large percent of firearms recovered in Mexico do not get sent back to the U.S. for tracing, because it is obvious from their markings that they do not come from the U.S. One obvious indictor is not having a serial number. Like the weapons in America have been required to have for 80 years.

“Not every weapon seized in Mexico has a serial number on it that would make it traceable, and the U.S. effort to trace weapons really only extends to weapons that have been in the U.S. market,” Matt Allen, special agent of U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE), told FOX News.”


Funny how they find all these firearms in Mexico when firearms are banned. Mexico has some of the toughest gun-control laws in the world.

[groundzero_1]

Originally Posted by FerretBone

“Not every weapon seized in Mexico has a serial number on it that would make it traceable, and the U.S. effort to trace weapons really only extends to weapons that have been in the U.S. market,” Matt Allen, special agent of U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE), told FOX News.”

So basically they're saying:

Group 1 paints houses red, while group 2 paints houses green. Group 1 can only count red colored houses, and came to the conclusion that 100% of the houses are red.

Basically, they can only trace weapons they already know are from the US, and leave every thing else out of the equation. (like FerretBone said).

I also love how the media misrepresents everything.

[FerretBone]

Originally Posted by groundzero_1

So basically they're saying:

Group 1 paints houses red, while group 2 paints houses green. Group 1 can only count red colored houses, and came to the conclusion that 100% of the houses are red.

Basically, they can only trace weapons they already know are from the US, and leave every thing else out of the equation. (like FerretBone said).

I also love how the media misrepresents everything.

I didn't say it, (all though I assumed it) the ATF and Boarder Patrol said it.

Mexico hand picked about 11,000 out of about 29,000 firearms. Then sent them to the ATF to be trased. Out of the 11,000 sent, 90% were from the US. The rest of those firearms were from some where else.

[shetlan]

Originally Posted by FerretBone

“More than 90 percent of about 11,000 guns tied to violence in Mexico's drug wars came from the United States, but those weapons were handpicked for tracing by Mexican authorities.
The Mexican federal attorney general's staff recently acknowledged that Mexican authorities had seized 35,943 arms, including 2,800 grenades, since the crackdown against the drug cartels began in December 2006.
That means Mexico provided the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives with serial numbers for less than a third of the weapons that were seized.” - BATF

The 90 percent myth was overblown, because Mexico did not provide the ATF with serial numbers for all the weapons it seized. Mainly because it couldn't.

“The fact is, only 17 percent of guns found at Mexican crime scenes have been traced to the U.S.
What’s true, an ATF spokeswoman told FOXNews.com, in a clarification of the statistic used by her own agency’s assistant director, “is that over 90 percent of the traced firearms originate from the U.S.”

A large percent of firearms recovered in Mexico do not get sent back to the U.S. for tracing, because it is obvious from their markings that they do not come from the U.S. One obvious indictor is not having a serial number. Like the weapons in America have been required to have for 80 years.

“Not every weapon seized in Mexico has a serial number on it that would make it traceable, and the U.S. effort to trace weapons really only extends to weapons that have been in the U.S. market,” Matt Allen, special agent of U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE), told FOX News.”


Funny how they find all these firearms in Mexico when firearms are banned. Mexico has some of the toughest gun-control laws in the world.

I posted similar stats above, but I had copied them from a story I heard a while back - same general idea though.

It's a ridiculous situation. The Mexican government is infamously corrupt, as are its military and police. They just picked up 25+ mexican police officers for having connections to the drug trade. If they want to know where the guns are coming from, they need to look at their own police and military inventory.

[FerretBone]

Originally Posted by shetlan

I posted similar stats above, but I had copied them from a story I heard a while back - same general idea though.

It's a ridiculous situation. The Mexican government is infamously corrupt, as are its military and police. They just picked up 25+ mexican police officers for having connections to the drug trade. If they want to know where the guns are coming from, they need to look at their own police and military inventory.

Yeah I know you bet me to it. I was just posting the sources from those stats and how they come about.



BTW,
That first picture/firearm is not homemade. It's an Argentine FMK-3 subgun
That one, has been slapped together from a parts kit. The FMK-3 has a tube receiver that's fully intact and surrounds the bolt. In that picture you posted, the receiver tube has been removed in the center and instead a bolt retraction knob has been welded to the bolt.

I think DSA Arms sold them.

edt
I'm trying not to be "that guy" but i couldn't help it. The 1919 belt feed Machinegun is used buy the Mexican police and Military. So again to add to your post it was most likely stolen or sold from within.

[Fayle]

Why buy when you don't have to? Just tell the US your against some country or dictator and put on a little show and we'll probably send you the stuff for free. Just like Osama had the US pay for some of his weapons against the Soviet Union in Afghanistan or arming the Iraqi government where terrorists have already infiltrated these organizations.

We didn't "pay" We gave them the surface to air missile launchers directly from our factories.

[shetlan]

Originally Posted by FerretBone

That first picture/firearm is not homemade. It's an Argentine FMK-3 subgun
That one, has been slapped together from a parts kit. The FMK-3 has a tube receiver that's fully intact and surrounds the bolt. In that picture you posted, the receiver tube has been removed in the center and instead a bolt retraction knob has been welded to the bolt.

I think DSA Arms sold them.

Like one of these?

Originally Posted by FerretBone

edit
I'm trying not to be "that guy" but i couldn't help it. The 1919 belt feed Machinegun is used by the Mexican police and Military. So again to add to your post it was most likely stolen or sold from within.

Don't be silly Ferret, we like having you around because you ARE "that guy".
Ironically, I was going to PM you to ask if you knew what model it was. I initially mistook it for the Maxim design.

[FerretBone]

An interesting side note is that that FMK-3 uses UZI magazines with a slot notch cut a bit lower in them due to the longer grip. Some of the mags from FMK-3 parts kits were sold as 40 round UZI mags after having a second retention slot cut in them - Stan Andrewski did a bunch of these.

[french tickler]

Shetlan, you have a great point in those weapons not being likely to have been smuggled form the US. The claims that these guns are coming from the US, in my opinion, are probably being made by the media to push for gun control. Them, and the Mexican government probably wants to point a finger at the US to draw attention away from itself.