open carry

[x29a]

How many of you open carry or have open carried in the past?
I'm not old enough (yet) but as soon as I am its going to become a regular habit for me.

[shetlan]

I carry concealed when I carry at all (which I don't unless it's a "special occasion").

California is a real gun-hating state so open-carry just attracts attention to you.

[_Th0r_]

If you're really interested in CCW's check out 'The Firing Line'. It's a forum run by the writers of the SWAT magazine.

[crazy white guy]

In Canada I can openly carry a folding knife or a small fixed blade. I don't like the stigma attached to open carry. I have an excuse that works without fail due to my employment choice but most people don't. I can carry a knife with a blade under 2.5 inches concealed but its a bit taboo. If police find it and you don't declare it, its as if your carrying it illegally. And if your carrying a knife while doing another crime, the sentence is automatically harsher. Here, having a knife while in possession of weed is the difference between you being a harmless pot head and a violent dumb ass thug.

Since I have a good excuse, I concealed carry when I think its necessary. If I don't think its 100% necessary I carry a multitool with a blade on it and declare it as being a pair of pliers rather than a weapon when police ask. My rule of thumb is that if police ask about something that's not illegal or related to prior illegal events, openly divulge the info.

[Big Al]

I carry openly, and concealed. Depending on the circumstances. Most of the time, I OC. Why? To carry concealed, I have to put more thought into the clothes I'm going to wear. To OC, I don't.

[CyberWar]

In my place, it is illegal to open carry for anyone save for police and military. Even armed security guards without state contract are required to have their weapons concealed.

As a law-abiding citizen, I have no choice but to carry concealed.

[ninefingers]

In my state it is legal to O/C into a Bank! I wouldn't dare, though. I don't want them to call the cops on me, even if I'm justified. I want as little contact with them no matter what my rights. The cops here have busted people open carrying for "carrying a concealed weapon" simply they were on the wrong side of the person and couldn't immediately see the gun. A wife was busted for "C / W w/o permit" because she was with her husband, the driver, in a car where the gun was in plain sight, he had a CCW but she didn't. In these cases, the guns were out in the open and C/W wasn't the issue. I would C/C but I don't want myself in Big Brother's book. I am going to try to legally "disappear" if I homestead.

[shetlan]

Originally Posted by ninefingers

In my state it is legal to O/C into a Bank! I wouldn't dare, though.

If you can open carry, you can open carry anywhere - banks aren't a magical zone where gun laws change. On the other hand, whether or not you can open carry in a bank, is really up to the bank to decide.

Originally Posted by ninefingers

The cops here have murdered a desparate MD and shot a 16yo who wasn't a threat since I've moved here.

I'd love to see references for either of those claims.

Originally Posted by ninefingers

They let the father of a friend of my girl's die in the desert heat of 106 rather than find him when missing .

So - he got lost in the 120,000 square miles of desert in AZ, and they didn't find him. What terrible people who didn't find a needle in a haystack.

[shetlan]

Originally Posted by ninefingers

I wouldn't O/C Anywhere in AZ right now--I can dig up the news blogs to prove it.

You can dig up blogs to prove whether or not you would personally do something? I'd love to see that.

Originally Posted by ninefingers

All a cop has to do is be on the wrong side of you to say you're "concealed carry w/o permit".

Big difference between concealed carry and open carry.
Try looking some of this stuff up before you try to talk about it.

Originally Posted by ninefingers

I have NRA blogs about complaints of this--or you can go to NRA.com, they've had a field day with Tucson CCW "violations".

I love how you keep saying that "you have blogs" but you don't post links to any of them. Beyond the fact that blogs are rarely if ever accurate.

Originally Posted by ninefingers

Whole families have gotten busted because the driver (husband) had a gun near the hand brake and a cop didn't "immediately" see it although the driver had declared it. The husband got off as he had a CCW but the rest of the family didn't, even though the gun was in plain sight. Again, I have news blogs about other cases and eyewitnesses--this is perhaps not the place for a general critique of PD's.

Yeah, especially when you're not presenting any evidence to support your claims.

Incidentally, that story is BS.
Passengers can't be charged for a weapon in the possession of the driver - especially if the driver has a permit to carry it. That's just plain stupid.

[Rose de Nose]

Interesting this should come up, I just walked around Missoula for a bit yesterday open carrying a LOT of big knives. (Just because I'm American)
I am over 18, but, literally bandoleers of knives (including a pair of Glock 81 knives) should seem to be violating something, one would think. None were concealed, but I had blade lengths from 3" to 1'4". I carried no firearms.

MT law says if the blade is longer than 6", and is covered by clothing, it is a concealed weapon and requires permit. Perhaps I violating the law by just looking dangerous.

[shetlan]

Originally Posted by Rose de Nose

Interesting this should come up, I just walked around Missoula for a bit yesterday open carrying a LOT of big knives. (Just because I'm American)
I am over 18, but, literally bandoleers of knives (including a pair of Glock 81 knives) should seem to be violating something, one would think. None were concealed, but I had blade lengths from 3" to 1'4". I carried no firearms.

MT law says if the blade is longer than 6", and is covered by clothing, it is a concealed weapon and requires permit. Perhaps I violating the law by just looking dangerous.

Laws about carrying knives aren't especially stringent.
Typically, if it's blade length is less than 3.5 inches, there are no rules.
If it's over 3.5, then you need to carry it in a visible spot.

You can carry as many knives as you like - as long as you abide by those rules.

[pcypoon]

In Canada, although you can open carry knives. There are a lot of restrictions about knives longer than 3.5 " and automatic knives. It's not recommended to open carry the knife, it gives the cops another reason to harass you. I carry a small 2.5" knife concealed when ever I go downtown.

[x29a]

Lmao I'm not talking about knifes, I've been carrying a knife that has a blade of at least 4 inches since I was 10 on my belt.

I should of stated this was firearms only.

[shetlan]

Originally Posted by x29a

Lmao I'm not talking about knifes, I've been carrying a knife that has a blade of at least 4 inches since I was 10 on my belt.

I should of stated this was firearms only.

That's what I thought you meant, but I must go where the discussion leads me.

[ninefingers]

Originally Posted by shetlan

You can dig up blogs to prove whether or not you would personally do something? I'd love to see that.

Big difference between concealed carry and open carry.
Try looking some of this stuff up before you try to talk about it.

I love how you keep saying that "you have blogs" but you don't post links to any of them. Beyond the fact that blogs are rarely if ever accurate.

Yeah, especially when you're not presenting any evidence to support your claims.

Incidentally, that story is BS.
Passengers can't be charged for a weapon in the possession of the driver - especially if the driver has a permit to carry it. That's just plain stupid.

Don't worry you Will get some hard proof. I am well aware of what
cops "Can't" do, it's what they DO that I am addressing here. Cops tend to do whatever they can get away with. And. I well know the difference between O/C and C/C . This is borne out in my post--read it this time. I have had guns, obviously you haven't. Why do you constantly harass me, why not Anyone who quotes their local laws or incidents? You seem to know them all...

And, No, you don't have to continue posts where they go. This is against the rules on most Forums, and will get you a warning/deletion.

Your Friend Dan-Oh

[shetlan]

Originally Posted by ninefingers

Don't worry you Will get some hard proof. I am well aware of what
cops "Can't" do, it's what they DO that I am addressing here. Cops tend to do whatever they can get away with.

Good for you kid. Stop telling us you have proof and actually post the proof.

Originally Posted by ninefingers

And. I well know the difference between O/C and C/C . This is borne out in my post--read it this time.

Well, you either don't understand the difference, or your post is so badly written that you can't express the difference - I'll let you decide whether it's stupidity or incompetance.

Originally Posted by ninefingers

I have had guns, obviously you haven't.

Sure little guy, whatever you say.

Originally Posted by ninefingers

Why do you constantly harass me, why not Anyone who quotes their local laws or incidents? You seem to know them all...

Everyone else who quotes local laws and events posts journalistic reference to the event or links to a site detailing the area's laws. You've presented no such proof to back up erroneous claims.

Originally Posted by ninefingers

And, No, you don't have to continue posts where they go. This is against the rules on most Forums, and will get you a warning/deletion.

Following the conversation as it evolves is a general part of human communication. In this case, the differing questions of openly carrying guns and/or of openly carrying knives are close enough that there's no reason to have a second thread.

[ninefingers]

Originally Posted by shetlan

actually post the proof.

What ever you say.

Everyone else who quotes local laws and events posts journalistic reference to the event or links to a site detailing the area's laws. You've presented no such proof to back up erroneous claims.


Following the conversation as it evolves is a general part of human communication. In this case, the differing questions of openly carrying guns and/or of openly carrying knives are close enough that there's no reason to have a second thread.

I WILL post it. It takes more than a few nanoseconds to get newspaper articles, As you will find when you look first look for one. Read your Comic book if you want The Flash. Seems I have to go to the office and get the NRA to contact me back. It is there, I assure you, don't get aggravated..... The fact that you care what I say is very uplifting. Or, you wouldn't respond.Didn't know you Cared!
You never got on CrazyWhiteGuy or CyberWar or Rose de Nose for proof of their civil codes when they posted, this seems hypocritical, there is a flaw in your logic.. What guns have you had? What are their serial numbers? I don't believe you can O/C in most California towns--I lived there and many cities forbade it unless you were a cop or security guard on duty, etc. Many forbid C/C and the few who do are very difficult to get a CCW permit from if not a security guard, private eye, etc, as you will find out when you Call some (Torrance, Napa, San Rafael, etc.)
If you joined the military at your young age you are probably a high school dropout. I see no College or University time. So, Who's "stupid"?
No, check the rules. Check posts. HeadCase has,as I said, chided posters when they went off track, no matter Who started it ("He started it , Mommy!" you say.) Be responsible.


SKS s/n 610671
Colt(replica) s/n L1215

Had many more in the past but as Registration not required in My state didn't record them.
_______________
"If you can't respect your elders, maybe you'll respect your betters."

[shetlan]

Originally Posted by ninefingers

I WILL post it. It takes more than a few nanoseconds to get newspaper articles, As you will find when you look first look for one. Read your Comic book if you want The Flash. Seems I have to go to the office and get the NRA to contact me back. It is there, I assure you, don't get aggravated..... The fact that you care what I say is very uplifting. Or, you wouldn't respond.Didn't know you Cared!
You never got on CrazyWhiteGuy or CyberWar or Rose de Nose for proof of their civil codes when they posted, this seems hypocritical, there is a flaw in your logic.. What guns have you had? What are their serial numbers? I don't believe you can O/C in most California towns--I lived there and many cities forbade it unless you were a cop or security guard on duty, etc. Many forbid C/C and the few who do are very difficult to get a CCW permit from if not a security guard, private eye, etc, as you will find out when you Call some (Torrance, Napa, San Rafael, etc.)
If you joined the military at your young age you are probably a high school dropout. I see no College or University time. So, Who's "stupid"?
No, check the rules. Check posts. HeadCase has,as I said, chided posters when they went off track, no matter Who started it ("He started it , Mommy!" you say.) Be responsible.


SKS s/n 610671
Colt(replica) s/n L1215

Had many more in the past but as Registration not required in My state didn't record them.
_______________
"If you can't respect your elders, maybe you'll respect your betters."

To save time, since every post you've made has been dripping with BS - I'll just respond in a block.

1: You've had three days to find these laws and stories. Nobody asked you to do it instantly, we've listened to you stall for the last three days.

2: I don't care what you have to say, I just enjoy watching you dig a hole to bury yourself in. Making up reasons for delays, blabbering on about news stories that never happened - it's really quite funny. You're making an utter fool of yourself.

3: I didn't ask CrazyWhiteGuy, CyberWar, or Rose de Nose because they didn't say anything that wasn't true. On the other hand, I know the stories and laws you cited where false.

4: What sane person would post a list of guns they own serial numbers or not? Are you really that stupid!?

5: I've had a CCW permit for years - they aren't hard to get in the least.

6: I joined the military at 22 after I graduated from UC Berkeley.

Now, let's be serious little guy. Your entire post was an attempt to shift attention from the fact that you havn't got anything to support the BS claims you made. Additionally, you seem to be under the impression that you can increase your credibility by making futile attempts at degrading my own - or at least shift attention from your own inability to support your claims.

Also, a note for future reference:
If you're going to pretend that you're in your early 50's - you should learn to write better than a twelve year old.

[ninefingers]

You Are 22. If you joined the Military at 22, then you have had only 11 mos. 30 days. overseas at most; unless you are posting from the Big Sandbox? Besides, it doesn't necessarily make you G.I. Joe. I know people who had Admin. jobs in Iraq; never saw action. What was your posting?
And, CCW's are Hard to get in CA, don't deny it. I have a friend who took Cop Training in LA, almost all CA cities have laws against O/C unless you are an On Duty cop or security guard, as said. (It may be OK in some small unincorporated townships up in the Gold Country or something, I am not sure of that). Try Look--it is there; call a few P.D's like Torrance or L.A. or San Francisco, Oakland, Berkeley, Napa. C/C, although legal in Some CA towns, police/sheriff drag their feet with applications; one year delay in any response is common. LA Sheriff's dept gave a whole 22 out one whole year--mostly to celebrities like Robert Blake. I lived in CA longer than you have.

How do you know the others aren't posting lies? You don't. You're just taking it for granted--I see no"proof". We are not in a courtroom, remember, no one is under oath, you included. What's it to you about me? I didn't know you cared so much--who are you trying to convince, me or You?

You Will get proof. The NRA has to get back to me. They have been slow, I'm sorry, but don't get on me about their lack of alacrity. Why would someone make up such horrible things and then hand out flyers, anyway? To slander/libel a police force is not taken lightly, especially if the incidents never even happened Why would a huge organization like the NRA risk a big lawsuit when they don't have to? Look up "benefit of the doubt". You probably aren't a member as you seem, oddly, anti-gun.

What about posting S/N's ? Are you now going to try to take them away? They aren't registered as CA often requires, anyway: Remington Mod .34 .22 S/N 157495; Uberti .45 Cal. Flintlock replica, S/N 275283. Diamond Arms .410 Shotgun, no S/N(As you will question this; I will tell you, many old guns had no s/n prior to the FFA of 1934. ) Post Your guns, a least a plausible list of their makes/models/calibers or you won't have proof on this string you know about them--only an armchair expert.

[shetlan]

^ Oh look more stalling. ^

I'll remind everyone that entire purpose of your post is agiain to attempt to lower my credability since you have none yourself.

1: You're going by the age on my profile? Since your's says "52", I think we can all assume that those aren't accurate.

2: Mostly, I worked at checkpoints looking for smugglers - the checkpoints themselves moved on a regular basis.

3: I see, you havn't kept up on the laws governing police possession of weapons in quite some time. Police can open and conceal carry anytime in any state - According to the Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act, it comes with the badge. President Signs Leahy-Led Initiative That Helps Off-Duty Police Protect Public

Again, I'm still getting a kick out of all these ridiculous delays. How long are you going to drag this out before you admit that you can't back-up your claims?

[ninefingers]

Here is some proof, ye of little faith--no I am not stalling. I have called one source several times only to get no return as yet. Should I drive 300 miles to Glendale and back just for you and kick some butt? Be reasonable...


The article on the kid shot on the tractor I have copied from Arizona Daily Star June 7 2005:
http://0-infoweb.newsbank.com.librar...og.pima.gov/iw although I can't attach it. I need to send it to an eMail address.

There was immediate comnntroversy and criticism of the TPD's actions---you will see in the article. The kid was backing--how fast can a Caterpillar go In Reverse? He may not have seen the officers behind him, it was noted there could have been other courses of action. It could have been dark, I didn't notice the time of day this happened. The family is now suing for $2 million. The cops simply could have walked to the cab and jumped in. They were taking a chance there was a dead man switch-- the Caterpillar may have continued on its own, driver or no. Maybe there is a detented throttle lever, not an accelerator pedal? Perhaps his body could have slumped forward to force the pedal? Again, they could have gotten City works to help/advise them. I consider their poor judgement to be no less than attempted manslaughterl; if I had done it iI would be no hero...

Also: St. vs, Adams, 189 Ariz. 235, 941 P .2d and State vs. Moerman, 182 Ariz. 255, 895 P. .2d 1018. These are from State of Appeals who cannot elucidate unless original courts and case numbers are given (that's what I'm waiting on.) Both concern that in Open Carry, the weapon to be in plain sight . This was nitpicked to not immediately visible--on the arresting officer's other side--and was appealed.

Dano vs. Collins, 166 Ariz. 322, 803 P. .2d 1021 is again not further traceable as I don't have the original courts and case numbers yet. It concerns holstered weapons "wholly or Partially visible". Lower courts have ruled that gun is concealed if not obvious from Position of observer.. See AxCDL at ihttp://www.AzCDL.org


Also your Anti-Mormon claims seem to be referring to the Salamander Letter saying Joseph Smith removed human remains to get the plates. This is the work of a forger, Mark Hofmann, who later killed and tried to blow himself up. He is now in prison; I think that discredits him:
lightplanet.com/mormons/response/99/salamander.htm and en.wikipedia.org/wiki/salamander-letter.
Divining is in the Bible many times--see references to Urmin and Thummim. Ex. 28:30; Lev. 8:8; Num. 27:21; Deut. 33:8; 1 Sam. 28:6; Ezra 2:63; Neh. 7:65.
There are no references of Christ saying no more prophets after me in Revelation in King James or Revised Standard.

Check nraila.com. They have State gun laws indexed. CA is listed as resticted issue; side note: "very difficult" to obtain. Perhaps your rich influential Parents had something to do with getting a permit? Or, a stragtegic blow job?
My birth certificate: file 151 57 00871 Territory of Hawaii January 27, 1957 or Certificate No: 151 1957-000871 (revised) State of Hawaii . Read it and weep..

[shetlan]

Originally Posted by ninefingers

The article on the kid shot on the tractor I have copied from Arizona Daily Star June 7 2005:
http://0-infoweb.newsbank.com.librar...og.pima.gov/iw although I can't attach it. I need to send it to an eMail address.

The link leads no where.

Originally Posted by ninefingers

There was immediate comnntroversy and criticism of the TPD's actions---you will see in the article. The kid was backing--how fast can a Caterpillar go In Reverse? He may not have seen the officers behind him, it was noted there could have been other courses of action. It could have been dark, I didn't notice the time of day this happened. The family is now suing for $2 million. The cops simply could have walked to the cab and jumped in. They were taking a chance there was a dead man switch-- the Caterpillar may have continued on its own, driver or no. Maybe there is a detented throttle lever, not an accelerator pedal? Perhaps his body could have slumped forward to force the pedal? Again, they could have gotten City works to help/advise them. I consider their poor judgement to be no less than attempted manslaughterl; if I had done it iI would be no hero...

Overlooking that editorialized BS you've written there - here's the actual story. Linked Here: Excerpts from a TPD Report on the stolen earthmover incident: Page 1 | www.azstarnet.com ®

Originally Posted by Arizona Star Website

The following are excerpts from a Tucson Police Department report following the shooting of a 14-year-old Tucson boy who hijacked an earthmover and led police on a 12-mile chase across town. The boy was critically wounded in the incident and is paralyzed from the waist down. The report, released June 17th, consists of interviews of many of the officers involved in the chase and subsequent shooting.

Long story short (long story linked above), the kid stole an earthmover, nailed a transformer, continued to run 12miles through the city fleeing police, tried to back it over the officers when he was cornered, and was subsequently shot.

Several officers reported that the kid was visibly swerving - constituting a viable threat to anyone in the vacinity.

To answer your question: an earth mover doesn't need to go fast - it's practically a tank.

By all accounts, this was a good shoot - I reiterate my general point that you're either full of shit or just an idiot.

Originally Posted by ninefingers

Also: St. vs, Adams, 189 Ariz. 235, 941 P .2d and State vs. Moerman, 182 Ariz. 255, 895 P. .2d 1018. These are from State of Appeals who cannot elucidate unless original courts and case numbers are given (that's what I'm waiting on.) Both concern that in Open Carry, the weapon to be in plain sight . This was nitpicked to not immediately visible--on the arresting officer's other side--and was appealed.

Dano vs. Collins, 166 Ariz. 322, 803 P. .2d 1021 is again not further traceable as I don't have the original courts and case numbers yet. It concerns holstered weapons "wholly or Partially visible". Lower courts have ruled that gun is concealed if not obvious from Position of observer.. See AxCDL at ihttp://www.AzCDL.org

When you have actual information, those will matter.

Your points on the Mormon issue will be addressed if you'd like to post them in the appropriate thread.

Originally Posted by ninefingers

Check nraila.com. They have State gun laws indexed. CA is listed as resticted issue; side note: "very difficult" to obtain. Perhaps your rich influential Parents had something to do with getting a permit? Or, a stragtegic blow job?

Or maybe being a veteran working in the private security industry had something to do with it.

Originally Posted by ninefingers

My birth certificate: file 151 57 00871 Territory of Hawaii January 27, 1957 or Certificate No: 151 1957-000871 (revised) State of Hawaii . Read it and weep..

And you think that proves what?
For one, Hawaii is infamous for handing out birth certificates to anyone and everyone - the President included.
Secondly, that doesn't back-up your claimed identity in the least - who's to say it's yours? Or even real for that matter.

I'm really a 65 year old Englishman born in Westminster
My certificate number is NHS 589648 COL number 5896485

[x29a]

Hahaha Where's the popcorn?
I'm at a loss why this thread derailed to talking about a earth mover running over cops.
Seriously keep this up ninefingers and you can win a fucking award!

Btw thanks for the sks serial number I needed one .

[shetlan]

Originally Posted by x29a

Btw thanks for the sks serial number I needed one .

Don't get your hopes up brother; considering the source, the odds of there actually being an SKS to find is pretty low.

[x29a]

Pm'd

Now to get this thread back on track.


Do you guys think a regular civilian should be able to carry a firearm openly anywhere?

I sure as hell do, the second amendment was written so every american can have the right to self defense.

Think of it from a criminal standpoint, If everyone walked around with a pistol strapped to there hip there would be allot less mugging and holdups.

The whole idea of banning guns for a safer city is absurd. It takes guns out of the law abiding citizen and gives them to the criminals. We don't listen to laws do we .

[shetlan]

From a constitutional perspective, citizens have the right to keep and bear arms so that they can defend themselves against invasion and against their government - not necessarally against each-other.

From a observational point, states with looser gun regulation have far fewer murders.

According to these guys http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/

California had 2,260 homicides in 2007; Texas had only 1,420 - despite the fact that it's been the staging ground of the mexican drug war in the US. Interesting note: More American have been murdered in CA in the last two years than have been killed in the entire Iraq war.

Florida, another pro-gun state had only 1,201 murders; others like Kentucky (204) Oaklahoma (222) Wyoming (16) Maine (21) and Vermont (12) can boast incredibly low murder numbers.

On the other hand, Illinois a rabidly anti-gun state had 752 murders. Similar gun laws apply in Maryland (553) New York (801) and New Jersey (380); and yet their murder rates remain high.

[JOECRAZYKID]

I agree with x29a if guns are banned the criminals will be given a lot of power over the average citizen and eventually there would be a lot of chaos if guns stayed banned from the average citizen
on second thought go ahead and ban guns

ninefingers just keep digging that hole this is starting to get good

[shetlan]

There's an old saying - "When guns are outlawed - only outlaws will have guns".

[ninefingers]

Originally Posted by shetlan

Don't get your hopes up brother; considering the source, the odds of there actually being an SKS to find is pretty low.

Don't you wish. And your crap on the good state of Hawaii is crap. Prove it. I was born before your rich parents even knew each other. In the biblical sense. Forging a Federal document like this one from Tripler ARMY hospital is a federal offense, if you didn't know.

"Try Look" is Hawaiian Pidgin. You never having lived there you are obviously not familiar. I use slang and colloquiallisms to stay user-friendly. Charles Winchester in MASH was always" right" but his highbrow ways didn't get him friends. I'd rather be a BJ Hunnicutt--a little more of a people-person.

Azcdl.org/AZApellateCourt_Danovs.Collins.pdf AZCDL.org/AZApelklkateCoutrt_Statevs.Adams.pdf AZCDL.org/AZApellateCourt_Statevs.Moerman.pdf These require Adobe, so go get it.

You Are partially correct about O/C in CA--I was told O/C was not legal in Napa county except cops, etc, turns out they lied. It is
Technically OK if Not Loaded (what good is this?). A lot of cops don't know all laws. One displayed the Tommy gun Napa City PD had obtained in the 'thirties:"It is Il-legal" he said; I countered:"In California." He didn't like that, but tough titty.

However, there is so much discouragement to O/C in CA I don't know anyone who does.

There is a small, recent group in San Diego that displays on Sundays. Cops are quite used to them and do a 13032 (?) search to see if it's loaded. Then they leave. This group is now spreading.

About CCW in CA--the man I finally got a hold of at (623)594-8521 (didn't
get his name, I will) says CCW impossible in Marin, LA County, Orange County, and very difficult in SF, Oakland, Richmond, and Napa counties and the rest of the Greater bay area. He knows one person in SF
who got one--he had a Nobel Laureate. It is only easy in burgs in the Central valley (Not Sacramento).

He also said he was O/C in a park while he had his CCW with him. A cop walked up to him and asked if he knew of someone in the park with a gun as a citizen had reported it. Since he was fat and left-handed the cop didn't "immediately see" the gun. The cop attempted to arrest him. He only avoided it by quoting the law to the officer that he had his CCW wih him; that made it legal C/C or O/C. See, it DOES happen.

He teaches CCW, he is up up on all laws and reciprocity, etc.
AZlaw says gun not concealed in car if not under drivers/passengers "immediate access and control". One guy got busted for having a gun rolled up in a jacket in back seat--he appealled and won. Yes, see, it DOES happen. Also, the passenger busted for not having CCW when gun was not concealed and driver had CCW. This is in St.vs. Moerman, I believre, If you Read it, you will see.

Also, I remember reading headlines in the Az, Daily Star, and they don' exactly jibe with archives. I can't do anything about that, now. Any police report I post is filtered thru the cop's eyes, remember. A citizen standing for their rights is often labeled "belligerent" to get them arrested. The truth Eventually outs-God Bless the ACLU!

The roader grader incident--why didn't you look it up for yourself before? Lazy? Burden of Proof lies in accuser, you know. Also, my Court of Appeals were genuine--look them up, too. Maybe it is opinion who was justified in the road grader shooting, but , NO, my "editorial" was not "BS"---anyone's opinion , even yours to me , is of value.I feel the cops Not justified, so do many friends. Why are you so pro-cop--I don't see years of experience to kiss their asses? You weren't There-- I read the original article, I see differences between it and the archives. This can't be changed, now. Again, I have no post about a kid on a tractor--I don't see one? Look up my B/C if you have such a great data base, before you dispute it. I could fax cop reports on other civil liberty violations, lawyer discussuions, Citizen's advisory Committe letters, etc, but again I was an eye witness and this would do no good to prove anything to you. If you promise to have an open eye I will.
I've talked to others, we all agree you should take some Midol for your cramps.Remeber, I am big enough to forgive. I only care because I want you to face Facts I am posting and not deny them by considering the source.

Hope you're feeling better; yourre friend Dan-Oh

[x29a]

What the fuck did you just post? I can't make sense of any of it.

Go fuck yourself, Get the fuck out of my thread with your bullshit and pm shetlan if you have a problem with him.

He'll prove you wrong and if by some chance your right he'll find some error in your response and make you look like a complete idiot.

Just admit your trying to bullshit your way out of this and I'll have some respect for you.