Obama Changes Federal Marijuana Policy

[Misanthropy]

AP Newsbreak: New medical marijuana policy issued

By DEVLIN BARRETT (AP) – 2 hours ago

WASHINGTON — The Obama administration will not seek to arrest medical marijuana users and suppliers as long as they conform to state laws, under new policy guidelines to be sent to federal prosecutors Monday.

Two Justice Department officials described the new policy to The Associated Press, saying prosecutors will be told it is not a good use of their time to arrest people who use or provide medical marijuana in strict compliance with state laws.

The new policy is a significant departure from the Bush administration, which insisted it would continue to enforce federal anti-pot laws regardless of state codes.

Fourteen states allow some use of marijuana for medical purposes: Alaska, California, Colorado, Hawaii, Maine, Maryland, Michigan, Montana, Nevada, New Mexico, Oregon, Rhode Island, Vermont and Washington.

California is unique among those for the widespread presence of dispensaries — businesses that sell marijuana and even advertise their services. Colorado also has several dispensaries, and Rhode Island and New Mexico are in the process of licensing providers, according to the Marijuana Policy Project, a group that promotes the decriminalization of marijuana use.

Attorney General Eric Holder said in March that he wanted federal law enforcement officials to pursue those who violate both federal and state law, but it has not been clear how that goal would be put into practice.

A three-page memo spelling out the policy is expected to be sent Monday to federal prosecutors in the 14 states, and also to top officials at the FBI and the Drug Enforcement Administration.

The memo, the officials said, emphasizes that prosecutors have wide discretion in choosing which cases to pursue, and says it is not a good use of federal manpower to prosecute those who are without a doubt in compliance with state law.

The officials spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to discuss the legal guidance before it is issued.

"This is a major step forward," said Bruce Mirken, communications director for the Marijuana Policy Project. "This change in policy moves the federal government dramatically toward respecting scientific and practical reality."

At the same time, the officials said, the government will still prosecute those who use medical marijuana as a cover for other illegal activity. The memo particularly warns that some suspects may hide old-fashioned drug dealing or other crimes behind a medical marijuana business.

In particular, the memo urges prosecutors to pursue marijuana cases which involve violence, the illegal use of firearms, selling pot to minors, money laundering or other crimes.

And while the policy memo describes a change in priorities away from prosecuting medical marijuana cases, it does not rule out the possibility that the federal government could still prosecute someone whose activities are allowed under state law.

The memo, officials said, is designed to give a sense of prosecutorial priorities to U.S. Attorneys in the states that allow medical marijuana. It notes that pot sales in the United States are the largest source of money for violent Mexican drug cartels, but adds that federal law enforcement agencies have limited resources.

Medical marijuana advocates have been anxious to see exactly how the administration would implement candidate Barack Obama's repeated promises to change the policy in situations in which state laws allow the use of medical marijuana.

Shortly after Obama took office, DEA agents raided four dispensaries in Los Angeles, prompting confusion about the government's plans.

[shetlan]

What exactly does this change?

Medical marijuana users in CA are rarely if ever prosecuted, and those that where likely don't meet the "legal requirements" that the new policy would still require.

Overall, this doesn't mean anything - he just needed a story to distract people from what a terrible job he's done thus far.

[Misanthropy]

Yeah.... that's it alright. Yup. For sure...

Why don't you read the fucking post? It's quite plainly stated. It's dispensaries & growers, genius.

Why are you talking?

[shetlan]

Originally Posted by Misanthropy

Yeah.... that's it alright. Yup. For sure...

Why don't you read the fucking post? It's quite plainly stated. It's dispensaries & growers, genius.

Why are you talking?

Again, what does this change?
It only protects people who meet the guidelines for the growth and sales of medical marijuana - which very few dealers (if any) would.

This changes nothing and perfectly fits the practice of making a controversial policy change to distract people from what you're really doing - the same reason he's talking about ending "don't ask don't tell".

[Misanthropy]

We're not talking about illegitimate "dealers". We're talking about not letting the feds imprison or otherwise fuck with legitimate growers & dispensary operators. Which they've BEEN doing all along. Especially since that last buffoon took office.

Very few? Dude, I know places in NorCal where around 70% of the residents are legit farmers. You're talking out of your ass because you dislike Obama & your input here is just weak.

Again, you don't know what you're talking about or, rather, you're intentionally misrepresenting the plain facts yet again. That's mostly what you seem to live for though so it's not surprising.

Originally Posted by shetlan

Again, what does this change?
It only protects people who meet the guidelines for the growth and sales of medical marijuana - which very few dealers (if any) would.

This changes nothing and perfectly fits the practice of making a controversial policy change to distract people from what you're really doing - the same reason he's talking about ending "don't ask don't tell".

[shetlan]

Originally Posted by Misanthropy

We're not talking about illegitimate "dealers". We're talking about not letting the feds imprison or otherwise fuck with legitimate growers & dispensary operators. Which they've BEEN doing all along. Especially since that last buffoon took office.

Very few? Dude, I know places in NorCal where around 70% of the residents are legit farmers. You're talking out of your ass because you dislike Obama & your input here is just weak.

Again, you don't know what you're talking about or, rather, you're intentionally misrepresenting the plain facts yet again. That's mostly what you seem to live for though so it's not surprising.

So this effects what, 200 people (specifically growers) nation wide?
Who cares!?
Again, this doesn't change anything.

[Misanthropy]

You could say maybe 200 growers in one county.

I know dozens in Oregon & much more than that in California. All medical.

Do tell, what is Obama doing that he needs this to distract people in the few applicable states?

Funny, one would think that making criminals out of US citizens that are following the laws of the state they live in would seem like an atrocity. With all of the money we spend on prosecuting & imprisoning people for drug crimes, ruining lives forever, this is a welcome change. Not doing this, at the very least, would be illogical. Why do you hate Americans Shetlan?

Originally Posted by shetlan

So this effects what, 200 people (specifically growers) nation wide?
Who cares!?
Again, this doesn't change anything.

[shetlan]

Originally Posted by Misanthropy

You could say maybe 200 growers in one county.

So, one out of every 20,000 people is a medical marijuana grower?
Give me a break, even you can't think that's really true.

Originally Posted by Misanthropy

I know dozens in Oregon & much more than that in California. All medical.

To be fair, the number of growers in CA has gotten ridiculous.

Originally Posted by Misanthropy

Do tell, what is Obama doing that he needs this to distract people in the few applicable states?

Wow, talk about narrow vision.
He doesn't need to distract the specific persons in the "applicable states" - it's national news, the idea is to distract everyone.

Originally Posted by Misanthropy

Funny, one would think that making criminals out of US citizens that are following the laws of the state they live in would seem like an atrocity.

You seem confused.
Federal law trumps state law (an extremely basic construct of our legal system) - the federal law says that marijuana isn't legal for medical use.
The concept of state sanctioned medical marijuiana is fairly recent - hence, they're not making criminals out of law abiding citizens, they where criminals already. The "medical marijuana" excuse just protected them from state prosecution.

Originally Posted by Misanthropy

With all of the money we spend on prosecuting & imprisoning people for drug crimes, ruining lives forever, this is a welcome change. Not doing this, at the very least, would be illogical. Why do you hate Americans Shetlan?

Wow, talk about a laughable overdramatization.
I think you've been taking too many doses of your "medication".

[Misanthropy]

Actually, I don't use marijuana. I can't stand it. It makes me too uncomfortable & I find nothing pleasurable about it.

1 in 20,000? In Medical states? I'd say your estimate is grossly conservative. I don't know 20,000 people but I know at least 20 medical growers here in Multnomah county alone. That's not counting Clackamas, Washington & surrounding counties. So, maybe you'd better take a closer look at the states in the states in question.

$200 gets you a license with a simple complaint. It's the largest trend since Christianity & makes much more sense in any case.

And no, I'm not confused about Feds trumping State. The fact that the Feds have chosen to actively pursue busting state registered businesses & growers at the cost of life, liberty & $$$$ is a goddamn shame. It's about time resources were pulled from this practice. The medical pot business is earning a SHITLOAD of revenue now. Legalizing is another issue but should definitely be considered when looking at how much money this generates at this scale alone.

[shetlan]

Originally Posted by Misanthropy

Actually, I don't use marijuana. I can't stand it. It makes me too uncomfortable & I find nothing pleasurable about it.

Okay, whatever you are taking, it's seriously messing with your head.

Originally Posted by Misanthropy

1 in 20,000? In Medical states? I'd say your estimate is grossly conservative. I don't know 20,000 people but I know at least 20 medical growers here in Multnomah county alone. That's not counting Clackamas, Washington & surrounding counties. So, maybe you'd better take a closer look at the states in the states in question.

$200 gets you a license with a simple complaint. It's the largest trend since Christianity & makes much more sense in any case.

Either you're lying through your teeth, or the growers you know are.

As of August 16, 2009 there where 106 patients in CA liscenced to grow their own pot. There is 1 group that is a "Certified Provider". A total of 556 patients had been approved to use medical marijuana in CA.

With over 36 million people in CA, 1:20,000 is unrealistically high percentage.

Originally Posted by Misanthropy

And no, I'm not confused about Feds trumping State. The fact that the Feds have chosen to actively pursue busting state registered businesses & growers at the cost of life, liberty & $$$$ is a goddamn shame.

That's a matter of opinion. The states that passed the medical marijuana provisions where in direct defiance of a federal law - like it or not, anyone who got involved was asking for trouble.

Originally Posted by Misanthropy

It's about time resources were pulled from this practice. The medical pot business is earning a SHITLOAD of revenue now. Legalizing is another issue but should definitely be considered when looking at how much money this generates at this scale alone.

Marijuana is no different from tobacco in that reguard. Legalization will lead to regulation. Regulation leads to mass taxation and mass taxation leads to another black market - eliminating the entire purpose.

[Misanthropy]

Ok, I just spoke with a partner in Chico, CA. He's a registered grower & he supplies dispensaries with his own product down there. He says that only a very small percentage of growers, like him, are registered to grow... that is, in the capacity that he grows.. To supply dispensaries & providers.

You DO NOT NEED TO BE REGISTERED TO GROW! You ONLY are required to have your prescription to be able to grow for yourself. Also, you can collect prescriptions from other users & grow a certain number of plants for each person.

He says that something over 1/6 of that town's population have been prescribed MJ by now and this continues to grow daily. There are medical doctor's offices exploding into existence in these states. You can see here just one of the dozens advertised in our local papers.

Mama's medical marijuana clinic getting registered for medical marijuana
Home | The Hemp and Cannabis Foundation

There are over 800 MJ doctors in OR & over 1,500 in CA by last count.
california medical marijuana doctors
California Medical Marijuana Doctors
CA NORML Medical Marijuana Information
MEDICAL MARIJUANA DOCTORS AND ORGANIZATIONS

Each of these doctors pulls in about $200 per patient to RX MJ. Many of these doctors write 20 - 50+ scripts per day, sending as many potential growers out the door in suit.

So now run that math again after you cram your weak ass stats & tell me, what kind of numbers do you see now?

[shetlan]

Originally Posted by Misanthropy

Ok, I just spoke with a partner in Chico, CA. He's a registered grower & he supplies dispensaries with his own product down there. He says that only a very small percentage of growers, like him, are registered to grow... that is, in the capacity that he grows.. To supply dispensaries & providers.

Great, anecdotal evidence of someone who may or may not exist - definitely solid stuff there.

Originally Posted by Misanthropy

You DO NOT NEED TO BE REGISTERED TO GROW! You ONLY are required to have your prescription to be able to grow for yourself. Also, you can collect prescriptions from other users & grow a certain number of plants for each person.

True, and there are currently a total of 109 patients in CA that have prescriptions to grow their own pot.

Your point?

Originally Posted by Misanthropy

He says that something over 1/6 of that town's population have been prescribed MJ by now and this continues to grow daily. There are medical doctor's offices exploding into existence in these states. You can see here just one of the dozens advertised in our local papers.

Well again, either you're lying or he is.
Only 556 people have been approved for medical use in the entire state. Unless his town accounts for half, it's a lie.

Originally Posted by Misanthropy

Mama's medical marijuana clinic getting registered for medical marijuana
Home | The Hemp and Cannabis Foundation

There are over 800 MJ doctors in OR & over 1,500 in CA by last count.
california medical marijuana doctors
California Medical Marijuana Doctors
CA NORML Medical Marijuana Information
MEDICAL MARIJUANA DOCTORS AND ORGANIZATIONS

Link 1: So you found an ad for a doctor (and I use the term loosly) that register's people for medical marijuana - so what? What is that suppose to prove?

Link 2: The Hemp and Cannabis Foundation. . . They calim to have gotten medical marijuana for 100,000 - in the entire country. Okay, so it's way less than I originally estimated. 100,000 people is nothing - hell, a million is nothing.

Link 3-5: All of these are essentially the same, so I'm grouping them as one. First off, you obviously didn't read them - since they DO NOT say that 1500 doctors have prescribed MJ or are even allowed to provide it. It said that there are 1,500 who "recommended" it - which is an totally meaningless number.

Originally Posted by Misanthropy

Each of these doctors pulls in about $200 per patient to RX MJ. Many of these doctors write 20 - 50+ scripts per day, sending as many potential growers out the door in suit.

So now run that math again after you cram your weak ass stats & tell me, what kind of numbers do you see now?

I see a whole mess of either completely false or totally irrelevant numbers.

Again, the Obama policy change doesn't change anything.

[shetlan]

Originally Posted by spunone69

Wow...this would have been a good thread to comment on!! Too late...it's already become an "argument" so to speak. LEGALIZE don't CRITICIZE!!!

It's not about legalization, it's about federal law enforcement not prosecuting people - under the protection that the state said it was okay.

In reality, there was no new law passed, there was no change in the federal or state positions on marijuana - it was a meaningless "policy change".

Legalization is an entirely different discussion.

[archleone]

Regardless of legalization and me being allowed to smoke legally, I think this is a good thing so that the DEA can stop wasting its time on busting people who need the drug or supply it to people who do and spend more time on trying to bust drug traffickers like La Familia.

Originally Posted by shetlan

Marijuana is no different from tobacco in that reguard. Legalization will lead to regulation. Regulation leads to mass taxation and mass taxation leads to another black market - eliminating the entire purpose.

So during prohibition there wasn't a black market for alcohol? I believe the conclusion of prohibition came because it created a black market that created an opportunity for people like Al Capone to make money.

[shetlan]

Originally Posted by archleone

Regardless of legalization and me being allowed to smoke legally, I think this is a good thing so that the DEA can stop wasting its time on busting people who need the drug or supply it to people who do and spend more time on trying to bust drug traffickers like La Familia.

That's part of my point. The DEA ISN'T wasting it's time looking for medical marijuana users.

Consider this: Ever state has a data base of the growers and permitted users. If the DEA was interested in arresting them, all they would need to do is look them up. The fact remaining that the DEA doesn't pick these people up on a daily basis points to the fact that the DEA doesn't care about them in the slightest - and WAS NOT trying to prosecute them.

Again, this was the state of affairs already, making Obama's policy change completely irrelevant.

Originally Posted by archleone

So during prohibition there wasn't a black market for alcohol? I believe the conclusion of prohibition came because it created a black market that created an opportunity for people like Al Capone to make money.

Apples and oranges.
Alchohol isn't considered a drug by the FDA, but tobacco and marijuana are. The question of black markets comes down to 'why' the black market exists.

Prohibition saw a black market for alchohol, because the substance was banned.
We currently have a huge black market for cigarettes, because the product is overly taxed. Cigarettes are perfectly legal, but the mobs are still making plenty of money from them.

The situation with marijuana would be no different. Once legalized, it will be taxed and regulated by the FDA. Assorted other taxes will be tossed on top to pay for civil projects (just as they where with cigarettes). Eventually, the price would be too high and people would grow it themselves - and we'll have exactly the same situation we have now.

[archleone]

Originally Posted by shetlan

Link 3-5: All of these are essentially the same, so I'm grouping them as one. First off, you obviously didn't read them - since they DO NOT say that 1500 doctors have prescribed MJ or are even allowed to provide it. It said that there are 1,500 who "recommended" it - which is an totally meaningless number.

To get medical marijuana in California you need a recommendation from a doctor not a prescription.

Originally Posted by Compassionate Use Act of 1996

"(A) To ensure that seriously ill Californians have the right to obtain and use marijuana for medical purposes where the medical use is deemed appropriate and has been recommended by a physician who has determined that the person's health would benefit from the use of marijuana in the treatment of cancer, anorexia, AIDS, chronic pain, spasticity, glaucoma, arthritis, migraine, or any other illness for which marijuana provides relief;

Originally Posted by shetlan

Only 556 people have been approved for medical use in the entire state. Unless his town accounts for half, it's a lie.

Originally Posted by CANORML

The new estiimate is based on data from Oregon, which has a mandatory registration system for medical marijuana patients. Oregon reported 12,040 patients as of Nov. 1, 2005, or about 0.34% of the population (Oregon Medical Marijuana Program Data) This equates to 120,000 patients in California, assuming the same rate of medical marijuana usage per capita. In actuality, California has a higher per capita rate of medical marijuana usage than Oregon because its law is more liberal. Unlike Oregon's law, Prop. 215 allows marijuana to be used for any illness, including psychiatric complaints, which aren't covered in Oregon. California doctors report that at least 20-25% of the patient population use cannabis for psychiatric complaints. Adjusting for this, the California patient population may be estimated at over 150,000.

Originally Posted by shetlan

That's part of my point. The DEA ISN'T wasting it's time looking for medical marijuana users.

My point is that they are: FOXNews.com - DEA Raids 10 Los Angeles Medical Marijuana Clinics - Local News | News Articles | National News | US News
And they also busted Tommy Chong for god's sake, how much harm was he really doing and it cost the government $12mil.
And heres a list of cases in California alone: Federal Medical Marijuana Cases in California

Originally Posted by shetlan

Apples and oranges.
Alchohol isn't considered a drug by the FDA, but tobacco and marijuana are. The question of black markets comes down to 'why' the black market exists.

Prohibition saw a black market for alchohol, because the substance was banned.
We currently have a huge black market for cigarettes, because the product is overly taxed. Cigarettes are perfectly legal, but the mobs are still making plenty of money from them.

The situation with marijuana would be no different. Once legalized, it will be taxed and regulated by the FDA. Assorted other taxes will be tossed on top to pay for civil projects (just as they where with cigarettes). Eventually, the price would be too high and people would grow it themselves - and we'll have exactly the same situation we have now.

What does alcohol not being considered a drug have to with this? The black market existed because alcohol was illegal and now a black market exists because marijuana is illegal; make it legal and the majority of the black market will disappear. Televisions are legal but there is a black market for them too if they are cheaper, there will always be a black market since there will always be a "mob" who thinks they can make some money.

If the price of cigarettes is so high then why don't we see lots of people growing their own tobacco plants?

[shetlan]

Originally Posted by archleone

To get medical marijuana in California you need a recommendation from a doctor not a prescription.

Actually you need a "recommendation" from two doctors, and one of them must be your primary care physician. None the less, the question is whether or not the administration's policy change means anything, which it doesn't.

Originally Posted by archleone

Quote from CA NORML

NORML's numbers are massively inflated, and their estimation methods are totally inaccurrate.

Originally Posted by archleone

My point is that they are: FOXNews.com - DEA Raids 10 Los Angeles Medical Marijuana Clinics - Local News | News Articles | National News | US News

I see you didn't bother to read that article.
1: They arrested no patients.
2: The clinics had been suspected of selling marijuana illegally - to people who wheren't cleared to buy it. They wheren't raided for selling in conjunction with state laws, they where raided for selling it illegally.

Originally Posted by archleone

And they also busted Tommy Chong for god's sake, how much harm was he really doing and it cost the government $12mil.

Chong's case was just silly - though it's not relevant to this discussion.
He was arrested for selling pipes - which I don't recall being illegal.

Originally Posted by archleone

And heres a list of cases in California alone: Federal Medical Marijuana Cases in California

If you actually fact-check those cases, you'll find that none of them where arrested for running state compliant centers.

Lynch: Arrested for distributing medical marijuana to minors.
Lepp and Barnes: Sold a pound of marijuana to DEA agents in a sting operation - well above the legal limit.
Steinburgh: Arrested by state authorities not the DEA.

and so on.

Originally Posted by archleone

What does alcohol not being considered a drug have to with this? The black market existed because alcohol was illegal and now a black market exists because marijuana is illegal; make it legal and the majority of the black market will disappear. Televisions are legal but there is a black market for them too if they are cheaper, there will always be a black market since there will always be a "mob" who thinks they can make some money.

If the price of cigarettes is so high then why don't we see lots of people growing their own tobacco plants?

Because growing your own tobacco is illegal! It's regulated by the FDA! How do you not understand that!

Secondly, if you don't understand the basic premis's behind the formation of black markets (which you've now proven) then you're just not going to understand.

[archleone]

Originally Posted by shetlan

NORML's numbers are massively inflated, and their estimation methods are totally inaccurrate.

One, you provided one set of extremely low numbers that you didn't reference so for all I know you pulled out of your ass. Two, NORML's are based on numbers from Oregon's state website and their number's for Califronia don't seem that unrealistic in comparison to Oregon's

Originally Posted by shetlan

I see you didn't bother to read that article.
1: They arrested no patients.
2: The clinics had been suspected of selling marijuana illegally - to people who wheren't cleared to buy it. They wheren't raided for selling in conjunction with state laws, they where raided for selling it illegally.

Alright no patients but that besides the point, but allegedly, the DEA may be just trying to enforce federal law regardless of state law and I know fed law trumps state law but my point is that the DEA is harassing medical marijuana suppliers to cut down on supply but say they are selling it illegally to win more support.

Originally Posted by shetlan

Chong's case was just silly - though it's not relevant to this discussion.
He was arrested for selling pipes - which I don't recall being illegal.

He was arrested for selling bongs, mostly, across state lines. And my point was that the DEA is wasting money chasing people who aren't actually hurting anyone.

Originally Posted by shetlan

If you actually fact-check those cases, you'll find that none of them where arrested for running state compliant centers.

Lynch: Arrested for distributing medical marijuana to minors.
Lepp and Barnes: Sold a pound of marijuana to DEA agents in a sting operation - well above the legal limit.
Steinburgh: Arrested by state authorities not the DEA.

and so on.

We can go through the cases one by one but it seems to me that about half of them are actually for medical marijuana, the rest of illegal distribution, and most of those for growing operations that were too large were so usually due to it being part of a coop.

Originally Posted by shetlan

Because growing your own tobacco is illegal! It's regulated by the FDA! How do you not understand that!

Secondly, if you don't understand the basic premis's behind the formation of black markets (which you've now proven) then you're just not going to understand.

Ok, then educate me.

Originally Posted by shetlan

We currently have a huge black market for cigarettes, because the product is overly taxed. Cigarettes are perfectly legal, but the mobs are still making plenty of money from them.

Do you honestly think that making cigarettes illegal would make the black market smaller than it is now, because if not then logically legalizing medical marijuana and recreational marijuana would make the black market smaller and it seems to me that smaller black market, albeit if only marginally, is better.

[Stephen Doubt]

This I think is quite wonderful. Even if Shetlan desires to talk it down.

I did some research on Marijuana and I am quite impressed with its benefits. And I'm also quite disappointed with the crude and disturbing tactics which were used in order to get it banned.

Why do I find it wonderful? I'd actually love to grow a marijuana plant. I think they're quite beautiful. And they have a nice scent, whic hI know is THC, but I can't grow them where I am, and I'd have to the next state over to get a liscense to grow it. And then it'd have to be sterilized or something I imagine, to keep the THC from developing or something.

If anyone knows about it, please enlighten me on this, though not in a snarky manner please, it makes you look bad. :P

[shetlan]

1: No you can't get a lisense to grow marijuana for asthetic purposes.

2: You think the policy change is "quite wonderfull" - why? Why is a meaningless change "quite wonderfull".

Perhpas I should clarify my position, as so many of you seem to have decided that I'm for a absolute ban of marijuana.

If the federal government would like to legislate a ban on any item or substance, I would expect them to provide a legitimate reason to ban said substance - in addition, they should be required to evaluate whether or not banning the substance and enforcing the bans had any effect on the underlying problem. If the underlying problem goes unaffected, then the ban should expire.

Marijuana wasn't banned for any legitimate reason - the reasons given before congress passed the ban had to go with smoking pot making "colored folk think that they're as good as white men" and other such racially based points. For this reason (the lack of a legitimate reason to ban it) I believe that marijuana should be legalized.

The usual arguments based on marijuana's legalization are totally invalid, which is why I ridicule them. People tend to focus on the cost of marijuana being too high, believeing that legalization would remedy this - which it won't. Legalization spawns regulation, regulation spawns taxation, taxation invariably becomes over-taxation, which leads us right back to the current black market scenario. The same thing happened to cigarettes (now selling for $5.00-6.00 a pack) where 80% of the price is taxes.

[archleone]

If you want it for aesthetic purposes grow hemp, but its only kinda legal.

Originally Posted by shetlan

The usual arguments based on marijuana's legalization are totally invalid, which is why I ridicule them. People tend to focus on the cost of marijuana being too high, believeing that legalization would remedy this - which it won't. Legalization spawns regulation, regulation spawns taxation, taxation invariably becomes over-taxation, which leads us right back to the current black market scenario. The same thing happened to cigarettes (now selling for $5.00-6.00 a pack) where 80% of the price is taxes.

Legalization would remedy part of the high cost. If a pack of cigs costs $5 and there is 20g of tobacco in a pack(I googled weight of cigs, dunno if its accurate) then it is a $.25 a g and its even cheaper for loose leaf rolling tobacco something like $.09 a g compared to pot which is something like $7-8 a g for cheap shit or as much as $15 a g for pretty good stuff(this in the midwest, near the mexico border it can be like $3 a g), even if there is massive taxation I can't imagine it coming anywhere near the current prices of pot. As I said near the mexico border it is extremely cheap, I have heard that it is as cheap as $50 for a lb in mexico that is $.11 a g, almost as cheap as loose leaf tobacco in US but this is before all of smuggling across borders and the prices going up as it changes hands numerous time which is what causes the high prices. So if it was legalized the prices would drop drastically reducing the enormous amounts that the drug cartels make off it and while there might still be a black market to get it cheaper it would not be nearly as large.

[shetlan]

Originally Posted by archleone

Legalization would remedy part of the high cost. If a pack of cigs costs $5 and there is 20g of tobacco in a pack(I googled weight of cigs, dunno if its accurate) then it is a $.25 a g and its even cheaper for loose leaf rolling tobacco something like $.09 a g compared to pot which is something like $7-8 a g for cheap shit or as much as $15 a g for pretty good stuff(this in the midwest, near the mexico border it can be like $3 a g), even if there is massive taxation I can't imagine it coming anywhere near the current prices of pot.

You're forgetting the new restrictions on growing, quality control standards, packaging requirements, and other such things that the FDA will require of marijuana growers - all of which cause drastic price increases. Then there's the increased cost of labor in the US, work place safety standards, and such.

None of the cartels would participate in a legalized market - they would continue to illegally import marijuana just as people illegally import cigarettes now.

Originally Posted by archleone

As I said near the mexico border it is extremely cheap, I have heard that it is as cheap as $50 for a lb in mexico that is $.11 a g, almost as cheap as loose leaf tobacco in US but this is before all of smuggling across borders and the prices going up as it changes hands numerous time which is what causes the high prices.

The prices are high both because it's illegal (anything illegal carries a heavy price) and because it goes through a distribution network.

None the less, even if it where legalized it would go from the grower, to the processing plant, to the packaging center, to the branded company, to the wholesaler, to the retailer, to the customer.

Don't forget, consumer goods go through a distribution network to.
Each of these changes of hands takes a price increase as well.

Originally Posted by archleone

So if it was legalized the prices would drop drastically reducing the enormous amounts that the drug cartels make off it and while there might still be a black market to get it cheaper it would not be nearly as large.

The cartels would still make a decent living on marijuana - and almost entirely in the same way. They wouldn't bother complying with the new FDA regulations - which means they would need to smuggle thier's into the country. Since it doesn't have a "tax stamp", it would still be illegal. Their profits wouldn't be as high, but it wouldn't change the drug trade.

[archleone]

Originally Posted by shetlan

You're forgetting the new restrictions on growing, quality control standards, packaging requirements, and other such things that the FDA will require of marijuana growers - all of which cause drastic price increases. Then there's the increased cost of labor in the US, work place safety standards, and such.

None of the cartels would participate in a legalized market - they would continue to illegally import marijuana just as people illegally import cigarettes now.

Yes but doesn't tobacco already have those restrictions and it isn't anywhere near as expensive as marijuana. If the US legalized marijuana other countries like mexico(I just found out that in Mexico up to 5 grams is legal to carry for recreational purposes) would too since I believe that they illegalized it in the 1970s when Nixon started forcing the US drug policy on the rest of the world since Americans were going to other countries to smoke pot; so if the US's taboo was lifted then other countries would to and it would be started growing there and it would end up like any other crop with its pesticides, and other crap that I don't want to end up eating or smoking, but my point through all this is that I don't believe that pot would end up being extremely expensive and leading to a substantial black market because it would as cheap as tobacco though the black market might be as large as tobacco's. Taxation on cigarettes and booze doesn't really affect my area that much if I wanted it not because I live fairly close to a reservation and I wanted any this stuff tax free I could go fifteen miles and pickup whatever I wanted tax free.

[shetlan]

I'm separating this paragraph since there are roughly twelve sentences somehow packed into one.

Originally Posted by archleone

Yes but doesn't tobacco already have those restrictions and it isn't anywhere near as expensive as marijuana.

Yes, but consider how long we've been growing tobacco in the US. Consider how much tobacco we export.
Consider how many people use tobacco in one form or another.
We have the experience to keep it cheap, the exports to keep the price lower, and the mass use to spread out the costs.

I can't expect these aspects to be on our side when it comes to marijuana.

Originally Posted by archleone

If the US legalized marijuana other countries like mexico would too since I believe that they illegalized it in the 1970s when Nixon started forcing the US drug policy on the rest of the world since Americans were going to other countries to smoke pot;

I still can't find any reliable info on when Mexico criminalized marijuana posession - not that it matters, it's Mexico afterall.

None the less, that's a moot point. That doesn't change the price in the US or the regulatory standards that would be forced on producers.

Originally Posted by archleone

So if the US's taboo was lifted then other countries would to and it would be started growing there and it would end up like any other crop with its pesticides, and other crap that I don't want to end up eating or smoking, but my point through all this is that I don't believe that pot would end up being extremely expensive and leading to a substantial black market because it would as cheap as tobacco though the black market might be as large as tobacco's.

Okay archleone, I can barely understand what you're trying to say when there's zero punctuation. Please try to separate the sentences a bit more.

A hint on the size of the black market for cigatettes - it's estimated at $250,000,000 in New York (state) alone.

New York estimates that they loose in excess of one BILLION dollars in tax revenue annually because of the tobacco black market.

Similar figures can be found in other states - the ATF estimates the black market value to be around $10billion nationwide.

[crash_1349]

i just think our country should keep marijuana illegal, about six years ago my uncle got into pot and i havent seen him since i was eight. so its had an impact on my life i could live without

[Misanthropy]

So, basically, because you don't have the intelectual capacity to analyze the situation & lack the willpower to do so anyway, you'd rather keep it so your uncle has to be a criminal, engaged in criminal enterprise, endangering his life & liberty to both sides of the law, cops & criminals alike, just to get his herb.

FUCK YOU (on behalf of your poor uncle who's cursed with you as his family).

[headcase]

Ironic then that you lack the intelluctual capacity to understand his point and lack the willpower to do so anyway. Valid arguments don't make themselves when the proponents present them with stone-walled ignorance.