Mormonism

[shetlan]

Originally Posted by 3nKrYp7

Can you give a specific example to a book of the Apocrypha that would provide evidence for Jesus because I'll admit my knowledge on them is limited, however from what I've discovered the majority, if not all, of them are written BC which presents obvious problems.

The Gospel of Peter, Gospel of Nicodemus (also called the "Acts of Pilate"), Gospel of Bartholomew, Questions of Bartholomew, and Resurrection of Jesus Christ all give accounts of his death burial and resurrection - hence their classification as "Passion Gospels". They where all written either in the first century or shortly into the second, with the exception of the Gospel of Nicodemus - which was apparently written in the fourth century.

Most if not all of the Apocryphal works mention Jesus to some extent, but I thought these would fit your inquiry.

Originally Posted by 3nKrYp7

No, I'm just looking for writings that we know to be legitimate, both of the examples you gave are questionable as does everything related to the Bible seem to be.

Interesting. The Bible is in question meerly because you've deemed it questionable - it's never been proven wrong in any field of History, Science, Physics, or Mathematics. There is a standing prize of $500,000 for the first person who can prove a factual error in the Bible (I believe the Geneva Bible society is still running the contest).

This being the case, I fail to see how the Bible isn't considered a reliable scource of information.

Originally Posted by 3nKrYp7

By independent source I'm looking for a first hand account from one of the numerous writers at the time. Even just a brief passing paragraph written on Jesus and his miracles. It seems that outside of the bible a lot of the writings on his life are at earliest written in 150-200 AD

Most accounts of Julius Ceaser where written after his death as well - is his existence in question?

[groundzero_1]

Originally Posted by shetlan

Interesting. The Bible is in question meerly because you've deemed it questionable - it's never been proven wrong in any field of History, Science, Physics, or Mathematics. There is a standing prize of $500,000 for the first person who can prove a factual error in the Bible (I believe the Geneva Bible society is still running the contest).

I'm sorry that tactic is not valid. "If you can't prove it wrong then it is a fact". Bullshit, the bible (this is my opinion) in every religion is bullshit. Science disproves ALL of the bible. Like how people became what we are now. Just saying you can't prove it wrong, makes NO statement true. The only reason no one has proved it wrong is because there is no actual fucking evidence from the bible to prove wrong. It is a book of stories, what if I said, "Prove the ugly duckling didn't exist". There are a million arguments I could have that he did exist, and no arguments you could make with any evidence to prove he didn't.

The REAL problem when proving the bible wrong is that there is no proof to say it's RIGHT, so there is nothing to prove WRONG. What the fuck are we supposed to do, prove that some guy thousands of years ago was killed anyway? WHO THE FUCK CARES?

Originally Posted by shetlan

This being the case, I fail to see how the Bible isn't considered a reliable scource of information.

From what I said above, I don't see how you could possibly consider it a reliable source. THERE ARE NO FUCKING SOURCES, NO EVIDENCE, NOT EVEN A FUCKING SIGNATURE FROM JESUS. IT IS ALL STORIES THAT YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO JUST TAKE AS THE TRUTH, AND THAT IS THE PROBLEM!!1!!111!!1!!

Originally Posted by shetlan

Most accounts of Julius Ceaser where written after his death as well - is his existence in question?

It merely means that the perception of him has changed in the 200 years he was dead. It probably started as a bedtime story in Jesus' case, and it just became a giant book of bedtime stories for some reason. (Fighting a lion and such, sounds like a bedtime story to me), also I know I'm not talking specifically about mormanism.

[shetlan]

Originally Posted by groundzero_1

I'm sorry that tactic is not valid. "If you can't prove it wrong then it is a fact".

Not even remotely close to what I said. Learn to read kid.

Originally Posted by groundzero_1

The only reason no one has proved it wrong is because there is no actual fucking evidence from the bible to prove wrong.

Totally and completely untrue - and quite telling of your ignorance of the subject at hand.

Originally Posted by groundzero_1

It is a book of stories, what if I said, "Prove the ugly duckling didn't exist". There are a million arguments I could have that he did exist, and no arguments you could make with any evidence to prove he didn't.

Again, totally untrue, and again, very telling of your ignorance of the subject matter.

Originally Posted by groundzero_1

The REAL problem when proving the bible wrong is that there is no proof to say it's RIGHT, so there is nothing to prove WRONG. What the fuck are we supposed to do, prove that some guy thousands of years ago was killed anyway? WHO THE FUCK CARES?

Really? The Bible has been backed by tens of thousands of archeological digs discovering civilizations (and covering notable events) which had previously existed only in the Bible's recording. The Hittites where previously believed to be no more than a fantasy - as they where spoken of only in the Bible. This of course was until the Hittite civilization was uncovered by archeologists in the 19th century.

I'm assuming your view of the Bible comes from a childrens book of Bible stories - which frankly makes your opinion of its validity as a hisotrical record totally meaningless.

Originally Posted by groundzero_1

From what I said above, I don't see how you could possibly consider it a reliable source. THERE ARE NO FUCKING SOURCES, NO EVIDENCE, NOT EVEN A FUCKING SIGNATURE FROM JESUS. IT IS ALL STORIES THAT YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO JUST TAKE AS THE TRUTH, AND THAT IS THE PROBLEM!!1!!111!!1!!

Again, this demonstrates total and complete ignorance of the subject at hand. The Bible discusses mathematics, history, science, physics, nautical engineering, planetary physics, and dozens of other subjects.

Secondly, why would there be a "signature from Jesus"? There is no claim, nor has there ever been a claim, that Jesus Himself wrote any part of the Bible - again, demonstrating your total ignorance of the subject at hand.

[Aequitas]

Science disproves ALL of the bible. Like how people became what we are now.

Just as Shetlan said, the Bible discusses many scientific subjects, including evolution. Many believe that a day with God is a thousand years for man, if you do the math, the age the Bible says the earth is matches closely with the age scientists estimate the to be.(I think I posted this in another thread, I'll try to find it.)

I'm sorry that tactic is not valid. "If you can't prove it wrong then it is a fact".

If you eliminate the impossible, whatever is left no matter how improbable is fact. Or, if you prefer, how do you think science works? One guy comes up with a theory that is widely accepted and then someone else proves him wrong until we are left with pure fact. Text books are updated all the time as science progresses, that tactic is therefore, valid.

The REAL problem when proving the bible wrong is that there is no proof to say it's RIGHT,

The Bible references all sorts of other historical facts, such as the roman empire, politics, places and popular religious sects of the time.

What the fuck are we supposed to do, prove that some guy thousands of years ago was killed anyway? WHO THE FUCK CARES?

Lots of people care. Many more than you might think anyway. My geology professor once told me, "Jesus was so important, that around the world, historians divide time as before Christ, and after Christ."

But, we digress. I'm a bit disappointed that nobody has heard any good rumors about Mormons. That green horn thing had me laughing so hard I about soiled myself.

[shetlan]

Originally Posted by Aequitas

Just as Shetlan said, the Bible discusses many scientific subjects, including evolution. Many believe that a day with God is a thousand years for man, if you do the math, the age the Bible says the earth is matches closely with the age scientists estimate the to be.(I think I posted this in another thread, I'll try to find it.)

On a more important note, I'll remind you that Evolution is still a theory - one with little or no factual backing. The very concept of evolution contradicts both the laws of genetics, heredity, the second law of thermodynamics, and the law of entropy - it's also statistically impossible.

Originally Posted by Aequitas

If you eliminate the impossible, whatever is left no matter how improbable is fact. Or, if you prefer, how do you think science works? One guy comes up with a theory that is widely accepted and then someone else proves him wrong until we are left with pure fact. Text books are updated all the time as science progresses, that tactic is therefore, valid.

It's a process of logical developement - the chain of events requireing the fewest links is the most likely one to occurr.

Originally Posted by Aequitas

The Bible references all sorts of other historical facts, such as the roman empire, politics, places and popular religious sects of the time.

As well as hints to the locations of subterranean oil mentioned in Exodus, the existence of the Hittite civilization, the blue-prints for the most seaworthy ship that's ever sailed (Noah's Ark), and the existence of King Belshazzar of Babylon (and the intricate nature of his rule). Then there's the references to planetary physics, the chemical composition of humans, and assorted medical references.

Originally Posted by Aequitas

Lots of people care. Many more than you might think anyway. My geology professor once told me, "Jesus was so important, that around the world, historians divide time as before Christ, and after Christ."

One of my Anthropology professors said something similar, "Whether you consider Him a historical figure, a bedtime story, or a raving lunatic - nobody has shaped the modern world more than Jesus." He himself was an atheist.

Originally Posted by Aequitas

But, we digress. I'm a bit disappointed that nobody has heard any good rumors about Mormons. That green horn thing had me laughing so hard I about soiled myself.

Green horns? I'm not familiar with that one.

[groundzero_1]

Originally Posted by shetlan

On a more important note, I'll remind you that Evolution is still a theory - one with little or no factual backing. The very concept of evolution contradicts both the laws of genetics, heredity, the second law of thermodynamics, and the law of entropy - it's also statistically impossible.

Science is based on theories. Gravity is but a theory. They call it a theory because nothing can really be "proven", so yes, we take that as truth until it is disproven. But these theories have actual statistical data backing it, it is not just a historical document stating false stories. If you even believe in gravity then you must believe in science, you can't simply say I accept this and deny that with no reason.

And the bible is a bunch of stories. Just because it contains places that were once real does not mean they were true. Just because the ugly duckling took place in fucking lake michigan doesn't mean it is not a story. And so big deal, it references something that ALREADY HAPPENED? HOLY SHIT NO WAY IT'S A MIRACLE!! How the fuck is anyone supposed to DISPROVE something that ALREADY HAPPENED?

Also, what are you talking about no evidence for evolution?

Let me some up why evolution is true:

(when I say animals I am referring to humans, animals, mammals, etc...)

- Animals have similar bone structures, showing that they could have descended from a common ancestor
- Animals earliest stages of life, as an embryo, show outstanding similarities in their vertebrae between species
- "Survival of the Fittest", merely the idea of Evolution, having a species evolve to suit its environment, shows us why animals in different environments/continents are so different, even though they are the same type of animal (eg. a dog on the alps is going to be prepared for cold, a dog in brazil is going to be prepared for heat)
- Fossil Records. They show the transitional traits between species, which shows that species had an undesirable trait and therefore changed over many years to fix that trait (and these were found from long before your precious bible)

Also, what the fuck are you talking about when you say the Bible 'predicted' the age of Earth that is close to science? Because clearly, this article says that according to the bible, it is merely 6,000 years old. But this article states that the earth is 3.9 billion years old according to science. Indeed it is hard to calculate the exact age of the Earth, but any old fossil easily diminishes the statement that Earth is only 6,00 years old.

[bloodlusta]

groundzero_1 I learn long ago that there is no point arguing evolution to Christians because they base their whole argument on what an old book of what are basally fairy tales teaches them.

No matter how much proof they get it won't help because they don't base their way of thinking on what they can see. Its what they believe.

Give it up, everyone who understands it, knows evolution is true and fact, there is no logically denying that fact. But there is also no point trying to argue it with Christians.

[shetlan]

Originally Posted by bloodlusta

groundzero_1 I learn long ago that there is no point arguing evolution to Christians because they base their whole argument on what an old book of what are basally fairy tales teaches them.

Really? That's funny, I posted an assortment of historical points that the Bible discussed - and neither of you had anything to say about that.

So, I'm arguing the substance of the question, and you're both repeating an unsubstanciated rhetorical stance that the Bible is a book of stories . . . which one of us is supposedly irrational or illogical again?

Originally Posted by bloodlusta

No matter how much proof they get it won't help because they don't base their way of thinking on what they can see. Its what they believe.

I've studied both Christianity and Evolution to a far greater extent than (I'm guessing) either of you ever will lusta'. I've weighed the concepts both present, I've looked at the arguments and the evidence. Evolution just has too many holes, it leaves too many questions, and every claimed "answer" just presents more questions. It offers no answer to the beginning, and no evidence as to how it all came to be. It offers no logical developement, and so often contradicts its own assertions.

Though I must say, I am amused by the "armchair atheists" that arbitrarally decided all religions where idiotic before they learned anything about them - and for that matter, decided that evolution was right simply because it held the gilded label of "scientific".

Originally Posted by bloodlusta

Give it up, everyone who understands it, knows evolution is true and fact, there is no logically denying that fact. But there is also no point trying to argue it with Christians.

This is the final stage of ignorance. You have no facts to back your position, you have no evidence to back your claims, so you talk down to your opposition. Like a child who's lost a game, you're degrading the game and the competition - "You're stupid, I don't care about this game anyway". You can't win, so the game doesn't matter - classic.

[bloodlusta]

Originally Posted by shetlan

Certainely.


Really? That's funny, I posted an assortment of historical points that the Bible discussed - and neither of you had anything to say about that.

So does the Kalivalia but I would doubt you would accept that as an historical resource.

[shetlan]

Originally Posted by bloodlusta

So does the Kalivalia but I would doubt you would accept that as an historical resource.

I have no idea what that is - and I think you spelled it wrong, because I can't find anything about it.

Secondly, that doesn't overturn my point Lusta'. I'm arguing the substance of the Bible, it's never been proven wrong in any field of study, anywhere, ever - it has established itself as a reliable scource of historical, scientific, and anthropological information.

You can't dispute that with any factual argument, so you just declare that your opinion is right - big shocker here, that means I won.

[headcase]

Drop and evolution discussion that isn't relevant to the thread.

Evolution

[bloodlusta]

Sorry is spelt Kalevala

[shetlan]

Originally Posted by bloodlusta

Sorry is spelt Kalevala

Hmm, I wouldn't know. I read a few articles on it, but there's nothing giving me a view of its historical accurracy.

[AESCHYLUS]

Originally Posted by bloodlusta

So does the Kalivalia but I would doubt you would accept that as an historical resource.

The Kalevala seems like just a collection of romantic poems, What connection does this bare?

[bloodlusta]

It is smilier to the bible in the way it contains references to real event in history placed along side myths, just like the bible.

[shetlan]

Originally Posted by bloodlusta

It is smilier to the bible in the way it contains references to real event in history placed along side myths, just like the bible.

You're basing the comparison on a pre-assumed inaccuracy.

If you happen to have a single Biblical statement that you can prove false, I'd love to hear it.

[bloodlusta]

We have been over this. You cannot PROVE anything is the bible is wrong (because magic could do anything), but neither can you prove it is right, you are getting into flying spaghetti monster ground here.

[shetlan]

Originally Posted by bloodlusta

We have been over this. You cannot PROVE anything is the bible is wrong (because magic could do anything), but neither can you prove it is right, you are getting into flying spaghetti monster ground here.

Hardly lusta, there's actually not all that much "magic and miracles" in the Bible. That's relegated to a few major events, making up roughly a tenth of the Bible's writings. There is far more scientific, historical, or anthropological information. So find one of those - they are the only parts that could be proven false anyway. Lots of people have tried to attack the historical and scientific accurracy of the Bible, they just keep being proven wrong.

I hate to tell you this lusta', but the problem is that you know so little about the Bible that you have nothing to attack - which should be a clue that you don't know enough to have an opinion.

[AESCHYLUS]

Originally Posted by shetlan

...there's actually not all that much "magic and miracles" in the Bible. That's relegated to a few major events, making up roughly a tenth of the Bible's writings. There is far more scientific, historical, or anthropological information. So find one of those - they are the only parts that could be proven false anyway. Lots of people have tried to attack the historical and scientific accurracy of the Bible, they just keep being proven wrong.

List of miracles recorded in the Bible (partial list)

Creation of the universe, including plants, animals and humans (Genesis 1-2
The flood (Gen. 7, 8)
Confusion of languages (tongues) at Babel (Gen. 11:1-9)
Destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah (Gen. 19:24)
Lot's wife turned into a “pillar of salt” (Gen. 19:26)
Birth of Isaac at Gerar (Gen. 21:1)
The burning bush not consumed (Ex. 3:3)
Aaron's rod changed into a serpent (Ex. 7:10-12)
The ten plagues of Egypt (Ex. 7:20-12:30)
-waters become blood
-frogs
-lice
-flies
-murrain
-boils
-thunder and hail
-locusts
-darkness
-death of the first-born
Red Sea divided; Israel passes through (See: Passage of Red Sea) (Ex. 14:21-31)
Waters of Marah sweetened (Ex. 15:23-25)
Manna sent daily, except on Sabbath (Ex. 16:14-35)
Water from the rock at Rephidim (Ex. 17:5-7)
Nadab and Abihu consumed for offering “strange fire” (Lev. 10:1, 2)
Some of the people consumed by fire at Taberah (Num. 11:1-3)
The earth opens and swallows up Korah and his company. (Num. 16:32-34)
Fire at Kadesh (Num. 16:35-45)
Plague at Kadesh (Num. 16:46-50)
Aaron's rod budding at Kadesh (Num. 17:8)
Water from the rock, smitten twice by Moses, Desert of Zin (Num. 20:7-11)
The brazen serpent in the Desert of Zin (Num. 21:8, 9)
Balaam's ass speaks (Num. 22:21-35)
The Jordan divided, so that Israel passed over dryshod near the city of Adam (Josh. 3:14-17)
The walls of Jericho fall down (Josh. 6:6-20)
The sun and moon stayed. (Josh. 10:12-14)
Hailstorm. (Josh. 10:12-14)
The strength of Samson (Judg. 14-16)
Water from a hollow place "that is in Lehi" (Judg. 15:19)
Dagon falls twice before the ark. (1 Sam. 5:1-12)
Emerods on the Philistines (1 Sam. 5:1-12)
Men of Beth-shemesh smitten for looking into the ark (1 Sam. 6:19)
Thunderstorm causes a panic among the Philistines at Eben-ezer (1 Sam. 7:10-12)
Thunder and rain in harvest at Gilgal (1 Sam. 12:18)
Sound in the mulberry trees at Rephaim (2 Sam. 5:23-25)
Uzzah smitten for touching the ark at Perez-uzzah (2 Sam. 6:6, 7)
Jeroboam's hand withered. (1 Kings 13:4)
Jeroboam's new altar destroyed at Bethel (1 Kings 13:4-6
31. Widow of Zarephath's meal and oil increased (1 Kings 17:14-16)
Widow's son raised from the dead (1 Kings 17:17-24)
Drought at Elijah's prayers (1 Kings 17, 18)
Fire at Elijah's prayers (1 Kings 18:19-39)
Rain at Elijah's prayers (1 Kings 18:41-45)
Elijah fed by ravens (1 Kings 17, 18)
Ahaziah's captains consumed by fire near Samaria (2 Kings 1:10-12)
Jordan divided by Elijah and Elisha near Jericho (2 Kings 2:7, 8, 14)
Elijah carried up into heaven (2 Kings 2:11)
Waters of Jericho healed by Elisha's casting salt into them (2 Kings 2:21, 22)
Bears out of the wood destroy forty-two “young men” (2 Kings 2:24)
Water provided for Jehoshaphat and the allied army (2 Kings 3:16-20)
The widow's oil multiplied (2 Kings 4:2-7)
The Shunammite's son given, and raised from the dead at Shunem (2 Kings 4:32-37)
The deadly pottage cured with meal at Gilgal (2 Kings 4:38-41)
A hundred men fed with twenty loaves at Gilgal (2 Kings 4:42-44)
Naaman cured of leprosy, Gehazi afflicted with it (2 Kings 5:10-27)
The iron axe-head made to swim, river Jordan (2 Kings 6:5-7)
Ben hadad's plans discovered. Hazael's thoughts, etc. (2 Kings 6:12)
The Syrian army smitten with blindness at Dothan (2 Kings 6:18)
The Syrian army cured of blindness at Samaria (2 Kings 6:20)
Elisha's bones revive the dead (2 Kings 13:21)
Sennacherib's army destroyed, Jerusalem (2 Kings 19:35)
Shadow of sun goes back ten degrees on the sun-dial of Ahaz, Jerusalem (2 Kings 20:9-11)
Uzziah struck with leprosy, Jerusalem (2 Chr. 26:16-21)
Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego delivered from the fiery furnace, Babylon (Dan. 3:10-27)
Daniel saved in the lions' den (Dan. 6:16-23)
Jonah in the fish's belly. Safely landed (Jonah 2:1-10)
Gideon's fleece (Judg. 6:37-40)
Miracles Recorded in the Gospels
Cure of two blind men (Matt 9:27-31)
Piece of money in the fish's mouth (Matt 17:24-27)
The deaf and dumb man (Mark 7:31-37)
The blind man of Bethsaida (Mark 8:22-26)
Jesus passes unseen through the crowd (Luke 4:28-30)
The miraculous draught of fishes (Luke 5:4-11)
The raising of the widow's son at Nain (Luke 7:11-18)
The woman with the spirit of infirmity (Luke 13:11-17)
The man with the dropsy (Luke 14:1-6)
The ten lepers (Luke 17:11-19)
The healing of Malchus (Luke 22:50-51)
Water made wine (John 2:1-11)
Cure of nobleman's son, Capernaum (John 4:46-54)
Impotent man at Bethsaida cured (John 5:1-9)
Man born blind cured (John 9:1-7)
Lazarus raised from the dead (John 11:38-44)
Draught of fishes (John 21:1-14)
Syrophoenician woman's daughter cured (Matt 15:28; Mark 7:24)
Four thousand fed (Matt 15:32; Mark 8:1)
Fig tree blasted (Matt 21:18; Mark 11:12)
Centurion's servant healed (Matt 8:5; Luke 7:1)
Blind and dumb demoniac cured (Matt 12:22; Luke 11:14)
Demoniac cured in synagogue at Capernaum (Mark 1:23; Luke 4:33)
Peter's wife's mother cured (Matt 8:14; Mark 1:30; Luke 4:38)
The tempest stilled (Matt 8:23; Mark 4:37; Luke 8:22)
Demoniacs of Gadara cured (Matt 8:28; Mark 5:1; Luke 8:26)
Swine rush into and drown (Mark 5:1-20)
Leper healed (Matt 8:2; Mark 1:40; Luke 5:12)
Jairus's daughter raised (Matt 9:23; Mark 5:23; Luke 8:41)
Woman's issue of blood cured (Matt 9:20; Mark 5:25; Luke 8:43)
Man sick of the palsy cured (Matt 9:2; Mark 2:3; Luke 5:18)
Man's withered hand cured (Matt 12:10; Mark 3:1; Luke 6:6)
A lunatic child cured (Matt 17:14; Mark 9:14; Luke 9:37)
Two blind men cured (Matt 20:29; Mark 10:46; Luke 18:35)
Jesus walks on the sea (Matt 14:25; Mark 6:48; John 6:15)
Jesus feeds 5,000 "in a desert place" (Matt 14:15; Mark 6:30; Luke 9:10; John 6:1-14)
Many fulfilled prophecies (also see: prophets)
The conception of Jesus Christ by the Holy Ghost (Luke 1:35)
Star of Bethlehem
The transfiguration (Matt 17:1-8)
The resurrection (John 21:1-14)
The ascension (Luke 2:42-51)
Peter and the healing of a the paralytic Aeneas at Lydda (Acts 9:32, 35, 38)
Miraculous ability to speak and/or understand a foreign language (tongue) previously unknown to the speaker (See: Gift of tongues)

Information taken from: Miracles, including list of biblical miracles (WebBibleâ„¢ Encyclopedia) - ChristianAnswers.Net
and on the meaning of "Miracle" in the bible: FALSE TEACHING: Miracles of the Bible

Notes and further reading

1See esp. Michael J. Behe, Darwin's Black Box: The Biochemical Challenge to Evolution (New York and London: Free Press, rev. 2006).

2See Joseph Houston, Reported Miracles: A Critique of Hume (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1994).

3See esp. J. Gresham Machen, The Virgin Birth of Christ (New York: Harper & Row, 1930; London: James Clarke, repr. 2000).

4For full details, cf. Ronald H. Nash, The Gospel and the Greeks: Did the New Testament Borrow from Pagan Thought? (Phillipsburg, N.J.: Presbyterian & Reformed, rev. 2003).

5See esp. Graham H. Twelftree, Jesus the Exorcist (Peabody, Mass.: Hendrickson, 1991); idem, Jesus the Miracle Worker (Downers Grove, Ill.: InterVarsity Press, 1999).

6John P. Meier, A Marginal Jew: Rethinking the Historical Jesus, vol. 2 (New York: Doubleday, 1994), 630.

[Aequitas]

Green horns? I'm not familiar with that one.

Me neither, but this guy was very adamant that I had green horns, we didn't believe in the Bible and that we baptized corpses. I've heard the last two but the horns was a new one for me.

Another fun story, I'm learning to play the bagpipes from a friend of mine and this April we're going to go play as loud as we can next to the anti mormons outside the conference center. I'm really looking forward to it!

[shetlan]

Originally Posted by AESCHYLUS

List of miracles recorded in the Bible (partial list)
. . .

Wow, that's alot less than I remember there being - it might not be a whole 10%.

[AESCHYLUS]

Originally Posted by shetlan

Lots of people have tried to attack the historical and scientific accurracy of the Bible, they just keep being proven wrong.

All of them? Every argument towards the bible's accuracy turned out toward the favor of the bible?

Originally Posted by shetlan

Wow, that's alot less than I remember there being - it might not be a whole 10%.

Were they as major as these, the other approximately 90%?

[shetlan]

Originally Posted by AESCHYLUS

All of them? Every argument towards the bible's accuracy turned out toward the favor of the bible?

Yes.
There's a standing prize of $50,000 for the first person who can prove the Bible wrong in any facet of history or science - prize provided by the Geneva Bible Society. Nobody has claimed it yet.

Originally Posted by AESCHYLUS

Were they as major as these, the other approximately 90%?

I'm not sure what you're asking.

[AESCHYLUS]

Originally Posted by shetlan

Yes.
There's a standing prize of $50,000 for the first person who can prove the Bible wrong in any facet of history or science - prize provided by the Geneva Bible Society. Nobody has claimed it yet.

Thats utterly amazing, i believe i will have to look into this.

[shetlan]

Originally Posted by AESCHYLUS

Thats utterly amazing, i believe i will have to look into this.

Good luck. The prize was offered for almost 30years with no-one even trying to claim it.

Incidentally, I've been trying to find a link to the submission forms, but I can't seem to. The contest may not be offered anymore.

[groundzero_1]

Originally Posted by shetlan

Good luck. The prize was offered for almost 30years with no-one even trying to claim it.

Incidentally, I've been trying to find a link to the submission forms, but I can't seem to. The contest may not be offered anymore.

So no one even entered anything, and there is no form to enter anything?

I'd have thought you were smart enough to figure this one out

[bloodlusta]

The problem is that it is up for the judges to decide if it disproves it. Interestingly enough there is a similar prize out there for $500,000 to anyone who can disprove the Spaghetti Monster theory as well.

You have said a lot about how the bible has mathematic and scientific parts to it. Can you please supply some examples?

[shetlan]

Originally Posted by bloodlusta

The problem is that it is up for the judges to decide if it disproves it. Interestingly enough there is a similar prize out there for $500,000 to anyone who can disprove the Spaghetti Monster theory as well.

You have said a lot about how the bible has mathematic and scientific parts to it. Can you please supply some examples?

You need to get past the Spaghetti Monster example lusta'.

You also need to stop trying to argue about a subject that you have absolutely no knowlege of.

Example Combining Mathematics and Science:
The specifications to build Noah's Ark.

Nautical science assumed Noah's ark to be an insane myth. For centuries, it was considered fact that one couldn't possibly build a wooden ship exceeding 300feet in length - it just wouldn't be able to take the stress of the open sea. There where a few clippers built as long as 330 - but that's still dwarfed by the over 400 foot ark. This perception remained the decided ruling - until someone built a scale ark and tested its seaworthyness.

Since then dozens of scale arks have been built by assorted groups and tested in wave pools (the same way they test a modern ship's capability).

The results showed that the Ark's design was 13 times more stable than the current safety rules require - many modern ships can't make that claim. The ark's structural safety ratings where off the charts - it would have been able to withstand down forces from well over 200 foot waves.

If you'd like more details on the study look for: "Noah's Ark: A Feasibility Study" In this particular study - they used 13 hull variations to test all possible versions - all but 1 met or exceeded expectations.

[bloodlusta]

So? Im sorry but I can say that in a story there was x object that was x big. Then if it turns out that object could be built that big it doesn't prove that the story is true. Also if it didn't turn out a wooden boat the big could have sail people would simply say "oh through gods power it was held together" or "oh that must be a mistranslation"

Frankly I didn't see any relation to mathematics in that what so ever?

[groundzero_1]

He means the mathematics in building the ship. But all ships require math, Noah's Ark was not special. And even if it floated, it was no act of god (as lusta said).

Also, I think the flying spaghetti monster is the best possible example to show that religion could easily be made up. Just because it is a completely valid point shetlan, you say that he needs to stop bringing it up?

Also, what is so great about the Ark? It was basically a giant tank, of course it is going to withstand the harsh waves (if it floats that is). I'm guessing they thought it wouldn't because it's hard to calculate the mass of a ship that size.