Sniper rifles

[Corporal Punishment]

Originally Posted by CyberWar

Pardon me, but I think we were discussing military sniper rifles, not hunting guns (although there are indeed some pretty hard-hitting scoped hunting rifles around).

Given my geographic location, I would probably go for Mosin-Nagant 7.62 mm - these old WWII relics are still available for sale in Europe and still make a decent hunting weapon, nor do they count as military weapon that requires a special license anymore. My old man used to stalk deer and moose with one, so human targets would obviously not represent a problem.

actually most hunting rifles are perfect for "sniping"

think about it, they hit far and hard...

you think every member of a guerrilla force has military issued rifles?

and "military issue" itself is just a term.

[CyberWar]

I must disagree that WWII military weapons ORIGINATED from hunting rifles. By the beginning of 20th century, all militaries around the world already fielded firearms designed specifically for military use. At the time, they were largely barred from civilian use. Of course, fact is that many almost identical weapons were available as hunting rifles.

As for a guerilla force, it is obvious that civilian-grade guns would only be used until something more powerful can be obtained. One of the reasons behind this logic is that a guerilla force is most likely to feed off the defeated enemy supplies, so using enemy standard weapons that are compatible with enemy munitions.

Hunting rifles, however, seem generally to emphasize lethal power over range - there isn't really point of being able to hit a buffalo or a deer from a kilometre away when that will only hurt and spook the beast, presuming you are able to spot the animal from such distance at all. I have been on a few hunts, and my personal experience and tales of experienced hunters all indicate that creatures like deer are rarely spotted beyond 50 metres away. This calls for a shorter range but higher stopping power.

[Draven]

Cpl Punishment is dead on. Most rifles in the USA were origionaly made as civilian models and they were later modified to military specs. The exceptions being evolved from the Cold War and Post Cold War era weapons.

[CyberWar]

A rifle with a possibility to attach a bayonet could hardly be defined as a civilian model, and most of pre-WWII military rifles incorporated that feature.

Of course, a civilian rifle of that era could easily be modified to accept a bayonet.

[Draven]

Originally Posted by CyberWar

A rifle with a possibility to attach a bayonet could hardly be defined as a civilian model, and most of pre-WWII military rifles incorporated that feature.

Of course, a civilian rifle of that era could easily be modified to accept a bayonet.

The caliber and bolt systems of World War 2 era rifles, as well as WWI rifles were based off of civilian weapon designs. Also bear in mind a Granade was first introduced as a civilian rifle. Also the common ammo types used in the military are 5.56mm (.223 cal) and 7.62mm (.308 cal) most hunting riflres in the US are 308s and are just as effective as the military cousins.

[squat251]

Originally Posted by angelofdeath

not very. you can look on the internet and find one for sale in minutes for abour $850.00ish. ive seen some at a couple of gunshops but they were wayyy overpriced at 1000.00 dollars a piece. to me buying a dragunov is a waste any way they have crappy accuracy past about 300 meters.

i own two of these rifles, and they are exceptionally accurate many of our marines use them in iraq for their penetrating power and um, try getting a C&R license (costs 30$, and you can buy military weapons through the mail without any other permits PPP for instance (meaning i can buy any pistol i want, as long as its C&R without any special paperwork)) i can easily purchase a drag for 500-600$ i dont know where you shop, but wow. also to the guy that mentioned the BAR...your a complete moron at least on that point, the BAR is a support weapon NOT a weapon suitable for sniping. also as the gunnery sgt. mentioned (im guessing you were a gunnery sgt. based on the fact you went into a scout sniper school of some sort.) you cannot take even an experienced hunter to a range and expect him to make a shot over 900m muscle memory, humidity, windage, elevation, the Coriolis effect (spin of the earth), spin drift of the round, weather or not the target is behind armor, and the psychological+mental effects all come into play. (mental not so much if you shooting targets or puuters (rabbits), but (since it has been hinted to) a human target, you hardend internet posters who have all forgotten your humanity im sure are capable of taking a life..ha right. point is without practice and a large amount of training not to mention mental hardening you will not be able to take that shot. being a long range sniper, or a sniper period isnt all guns ammo and training, a fair bit of it its looking at the person you are about to kill, as opposed to mindless killing in video games, when your looking down the scope at your target you are closer to that person than one might think. you see emotions, and its not easy to take a life ever, life isnt a movie, there is some mental stress to killing people, you should all think that though. (sorry for my spelling of some things) not only have i served in Iraq, I have taken 10 enemy lives. its not easy, so dont think it is ever.

Master Sergeant United States Marine Corps.




also, on a side note, a .308, 30-06, or a 7.62x54 (drag, mosin nagot) cartrige bought from your local sporting goods shop is often a hunting round, while great for hunting deer at ranges under 200m or so, they are terrible for long range shots. these rounds are underpowered so that they are cheap to make but can get a profit from hunters. your much better buying military surplus ammo off the internet in your specified caliber, often these bullets include a steel penetrator and much more power. (if you need proof of this steel core, i would be happy to take some pictures of recovered cores out of a bowling ball i shot up.)

[Azrael21]

I am going to have to agree with your "killing isnt easy" statement. It's not just pulling the trigger to the rifle. Funny isnt it, one movement of a finger and someones life is gone.

Everyone likes to act like they are some coldblooded killer, but try looking in someones eyes as the light leaves them.

How can life just be snuffed out like that? It takes nine months and alot of pain to enter this world, and a split second to leave it.

“Naked a man comes from his mother’s womb,
and as he comes, so he departs.
He takes nothing from his labor
that he can carry in his hand.”

[LizzyReikoZ]

With proper training, killing can be done with cold efficiency. Some people enjoy looking into someone's eyes as they die. We all have things that must be done; some of us more than others.

[squat251]

its very true, i myself went through the riggors of the mental training, but no one, i repeat no one ever likes to take a life. in a firefight at the moment your mind cant comprehend what happend your adrenaline is pumping so fast that you can only think about keeping alive, but once that firefight is over, and your carrying the bodies of the man you killed you do not enjoy one second of taking his life. i know for certain, that there is no way, at all that you "LizzyReikoZ" could live through any of my bad memories and come out the same. untill you have shot some one and watched him die, be it fast or slow do NOT comment on what you believe some people like. its true that the killing can be done with "cold efficiency" but that person does not enjoy it, not for a second, no matter how much he tells himself he does.

[grndpndr]

You better reread your list of C+R weapons 'Gunny' or your lying out your ass.The M1 garand is the most modern rifle you can purchase with a c+r license.CURIO and RELIC not modern made firearms, google the ATFs list of C+Rs. Still like the savage .308 tactical at around $560.Best buy for the $ will easily keep up with a remington police /tactical rifle and w/o doubt a 900/1000m rifle with a good scope /shooter-spotter.A good TM for learning shooting/sniper training is downloadable for $0,FM 23-10 Sniper Training still pretty current 1994 M40a1 and M21 rfles IIRC.Wind ,range ,mirage estimation fieldcraft,marksmanship,commo etc etc.

Better download that TM on a disc as its 9 Chapters and a good 500 pages of outstanding instruction.Lot of paper and ink.

.223/5.56 max effective point targets (people)500m ,target rifles w/match ammo 600m.Any .22 centerfire is NOT a military sniper rifle other than a police sniper at ranges of 100-200m.And the dragunov civilian copy or the military equivalent in no way = to any US made mlitary sniper rifle/scope .For the $1700 Ive seen(Dragunov copys which arent really copys of dragunovs but Romanian designed) them listed for in Shotgun news you can have the savage a true sniper rifle and a top of the line military type mil-dot sniper scope w/rings and bases.I wont state the obvious fellas but you should get the Idea.By the ay 'Gunny" whats the pay grade of a gunnery Sgt and the current sniper rifle of the Marine corps and army and the current DMR in use?Any military rifle anyone can mention to include the cartridges were designed for the mlitary amd adopted for sporting use NOT the other way around at least in the 20-21st centurys.The 1898krag-Jorgenson,30-40,
the 03a3 springfield 30-06,the M1 garand 30-06,the m14.308,and the M16A1/2 5.56x45 all rifle s and all pof mlitary NOT civilian origin.

[PsychoGuy08]

i dont know alot about guns but a m14 scoped might be good

[squat251]

Originally Posted by grndpndr

You better reread your list of C+R weapons 'Gunny' or your lying out your ass.The M1 garand is the most modern rifle you can purchase with a c+r license.CURIO and RELIC not modern made firearms, google the ATFs list of C+Rs. Still like the savage .308 tactical at around $560.Best buy for the $ will easily keep up with a remington police /tactical rifle and w/o doubt a 900/1000m rifle with a good scope /shooter-spotter.A good TM for learning shooting/sniper training is downloadable for $0,FM 23-10 Sniper Training still pretty current 1994 M40a1 and M21 rfles IIRC.Wind ,range ,mirage estimation fieldcraft,marksmanship,commo etc etc.

Better download that TM on a disc as its 9 Chapters and a good 500 pages of outstanding instruction.Lot of paper and ink.

.223/5.56 max effective point targets (people)500m ,target rifles w/match ammo 600m.Any .22 centerfire is NOT a military sniper rifle other than a police sniper at ranges of 100-200m.And the dragunov civilian copy or the military equivalent in no way = to any US made mlitary sniper rifle/scope .For the $1700 Ive seen(Dragunov copys which arent really copys of dragunovs but Romanian designed) them listed for in Shotgun news you can have the savage a true sniper rifle and a top of the line military type mil-dot sniper scope w/rings and bases.I wont state the obvious fellas but you should get the Idea.By the ay 'Gunny" whats the pay grade of a gunnery Sgt and the current sniper rifle of the Marine corps and army and the current DMR in use?Any military rifle anyone can mention to include the cartridges were designed for the mlitary amd adopted for sporting use NOT the other way around at least in the 20-21st centurys.The 1898krag-Jorgenson,30-40,
the 03a3 springfield 30-06,the M1 garand 30-06,the m14.308,and the M16A1/2 5.56x45 all rifle s and all pof mlitary NOT civilian origin.

first, the dragunov (at least all of the ones that i have ever seen) are not made in 5.56 but are 7.62x54, the same ammo used in the mosin nagot rifle used in WW2 by the russian armed forces.

though i would have expected you to know this... the current military standard issue sniper rifle is the m24 sniper weapons system, there is also another variant of the remington 700, (the m40) which both fire a 300 magnum round that are made by the shooter. so you dont get confused they are both modified versions of the remington 700

my pay grade is E-8 because I, am not a gunnery sergeant, i am a retired master sergeant. the gunnery sergeant was what i thought you were, after having gone through scout sniper school, and possessing the knowledge you do. to answer the question you asked its E-7 for a gunny.

and by DMR im guessing you mean the squad designated marksmans rifle. to my current knowledge its a heavily modified m16, although it could easily be the m16s little brother the m4, any other respect scarring questions?

also, "The 1898krag-Jorgenson,30-40,
the 03a3 springfield 30-06,the M1 garand 30-06,the m14.308,and the M16A1/2 5.56x45 all rifle s and all pof mlitary NOT civilian origin" that is true, however if you had a competent thought in your head you would know that the over priced Remington, Winchester, and all other HUNTING ammo that you get in the sporting goods section of your local Wal-Mart, is INFERIOR to the surplus military ammo from yesteryear.

another side note, i was not endorsing the SVD solely, i was correcting someone else, you share my best choice. the SVD, though would make just as long a shot. infact you can prcure many different types of 7.62x54 to suit your needs, yellow ball being my favorite.

[LizzyReikoZ]

squat... I said "some people" as to avoid incriminating myself online.

[Azrael21]

Are you suggesting that you are some cold blooded killer? If so i am going to have to either say: a) you have a mental problem; or more likely b) your trying to make yourself look tough.

[grndpndr]

My apologys if you felt disrespected Squat 251 just a lame attempt to gauge your veracity.
Again my apologys.
As far as the dragunov Im well aware there chambered in 7.62x54 an ancient round by even '06' stds but an accurate one with good ammo which isnt always available and really not well served by the dragunov which as you know is simply an enlarged AK reciever with a different gas system to help accuracy somewhat as you know how rotten the AKs accuracy is.IMHO the BBL is far to skinny the scopes are pretty crude by western stds and I think at best they are a DMR and a poor one at that compared to the army and marine corps accurized M14s which im told will eventually be replaced by the GD M16A2 in a modified form. A piss poor choice IMHO.A DMR ought to be capable of 500-700m shots and the 5.56 M855 or even the MK262 77gr HPBT match king just wont cut it.Not lethal enough,not enough penetration of building materials etc.By the way I wasnt in the Marine corps the 18th ABN Corps and attached 82nd ABN, 1/508, CSC,the 193rd Brigade 3/5 A CO (ABN) canal zone is army "all the way" too.As for rank I was a lowly Squad leader/CO sniper and an acting SGT with a
primary MOS of 11b1P (Airborne Infantry)

Im just not impressed with the available civilian model of whats being called a dragunov by dealers when in fact its romanian designed semi copy of a dragunov with crap scope for some way overpriced figure of near $1700.I have a $175 yugo 7.92mm mauser thats 60yrs old but with exc rifling and in exc condition actually it looked unissued that will outshoot that POS with 70s era heavy ball.The Savage tactical is still the best buy in an actual sniper rifle and it would take a natl class shooter to tell any difference between it and a $2500 custom sniper rifle.As far as scoping an M14 is been done to accurized M14s and called the M21.It takes alot of work$$$ compred to a bolt gun to make them shoot well and just the scope mount and rings will cost $450-$500 near as much as the entire savage rifle.The most basic repro M14/M1a will cost about $1400 then it will need extensive accurizing to make it into a true sniper rifle plus it will have to be regularly rebuilt by qualified armorers to keep it shooting up to snuff $1400 for the basic gun +$450 for a good mount another very minimum of $300 for the very least acceptable scope-$1500 for a leupold military Mil dot scope nd were up to $2150 w/o S+H plus the deqalers 10% cut.Afetr all that i could buy a cheap Savage std bolt gun in '06' or .308 and outshoot the M14/M1a with the $300 Tasco supersniper scope!f course that$$$ doesnt concern the military.LOL

also dont recall comparing the quality of ammunition just the origin of the rifles and cartridges I named which are in fact military, no one was mentioning quality of ammo s how did you come up with that pearl?

[squat251]

I accept your apology, i have sustained far worse insults, and lived quite well with it.

its very true that the mass produced SVDs are a small step above trash, however i happend upon a Norinco copy of an svd and am more than impressed with its accuracy at 300yrds, i wouldn't want to take a shot at something that could move after the first shot at 1mile, but since its semi auto, it wouldn't be hard to fire off another couple of rounds. the recoil, however is another matter, its far to much to take another accurate shot, so a bolt action savage would be the best choice.

i fully agree with your comment on replacing the m14, it should be replaced by something that can do serious damage at long distance, 223 is a pointless round IMHO as it could take as many as 4 shots to down an adrenaline fueled foe. which is probably why our men are picking up RPK's and AK's, much more stopping power in general. the round is great (7.62x25) and such should be compounded upon with a new weapon designed to replace our far underpowered m16s. the AK is good, but its far to inaccurate for the soldiers to use, after all they are used to overpowered .22s, and we all know that a .22 is normally quite accurate.

however, if i had to kill someone, even with the training i have had, it would seem a smarter idea to find a nice semi-close range spot and take it out, unless the hit was planned on a president (no do not try to assassinate a governing power ever, this is just a statement or opinion) you should have more than enough time to retreat with what ever weapon you choose to use, a simple lever action 30-30 would more than kill some one at ranges inside of 300yrds (and far exceeding that, this is if the choice was made to keep relatively close) plus a shot of this range would only require a few hours of practice.

[grndpndr]

The 5.56x45 is what it is, small caliber high velocity round that may but more likely wont make oneshot stops to hyped towel heads.Adrenalin and opiate filled syringes are commonly found on abandoned battlefields the terrorists fueling up prior to battle .Tough to stop anyone with any rifle when there doped on adrenlin and opiates.I would bet most westerners would scream for a medic immediately upon being hit with a 5.56 anywhere on there person and be out of the fight f they could be medevaced.Towelheads on the other hand tend to be suicidal so anything but a hit to the CNS or a vital organ wouldnt result in a one stop shot.
I still favor the M16A2/over the AK becuse of the extraordinry accuracy there capable of.Ive fired all types of weapons for decades civilian and military and to be honest I have never fired a more accurate weapon out of the box than a AR15A2 HBAR (civilian semi-auto heavy bbl M16)Many can easily shoot into 1/2 in MOA at 100M and the military M16s arent any less accurate with proper ammo.Fact is that AR/M16A2 will ether outshoot or = most any bolt gun even the sniper rifles to 500-600meters with match ammo.In fact in military high power shooting the M16/AR is now king of the hill.The very best M14s/M1As cannot beat the M16
at 600 meters and its rare to see an M14/M1a on the firing line at the national matches any more except when ranges reach 800-1000M the .308 and a new caliber a 6.5 mm wildcat with very efficient ballistic coefficients are king the 5.56 has NO power at 1000 meters not even =s the .22 LR at the muzzle.The suggestion the .223 is a 1000m sniper or target rifle are the utterings of someone very ignorant of firearms period.As well as the tale that military rifles are nothing but copys of civilian designs.Someones buthchering of the name Garand being a civilian rifle design is absurd,A canadian by the name of Garand was working for springfield armory, a government military armory the entire time of the garands design until Garand retired and in fact MR Garand helped in the design of the M14 as its basically a modification of the garand action with the addition of a detachable magazine and a better gas system.The springfield M1903a3 is basically a copy of the mauser designed military rifle with some US design features in order to try to not pay the german mauser Brothers a royalty on the design.Why is everyone afraid to do any research?Going back as long as there have been organized militarys back to the revolutionary war and beyond there were specific military weapons like the smooth bore brown bess a military weapon and the pennsylvania rifle a civilian design intended for hunting not warfare.All the way to the present day i can mention NO US military weapons that were civilian weapons and the calibers,45/70 trapdoor, 30/40 krag,30,06,7.62x51 or whats called by civilians the .308 and the 5.56x45 a military cartridge called the .223 by the civilian gunmakers all were military rifles and calibers
before being adopted by hunters NOT the other way aound!!!

Before machine guns were required to be registered in 1934 the thomspson submachine gun was marketed to civilians as a defense weapon.Why?Because they were a military design that the government didnt buy in quantity until ww2 because intended for ww1 the war was over prior to its adoption by the military and in order to try to stay in buisiness this "trench Broom" as it was called was sold to civilians and finally bought in quantity by the military beginning prior to ww2.I dont understand why hearsay/old wives tales pass for fact so easily here when it would take 15 minutes researching on these wonderful new tech the computer.Like having the library of congress in your house but few use it to its potential even as an encyclopedia?! Thats darned lazy!

The AK round is OK it has somewhat better penetration of hard targets /building materials but the semi-AP military 5.56x45 steel tipped round wll nearly completely penetrate a 7/8in thick mild steel plate so its far superior against body armor but the AK is better to 200-300m on building materials but it wont penetrate US grndpndrs body armor or helmets
but then neither will an AP 7.62x54 dragunov or mosin nagant or even ap '06' penerate the ceramic plates in the body armor but will hole the Kevlar helmet sadly.

[LizzyReikoZ]

Haha, of course I have mental problems. But, yes, I have killed someone, but I was working for some people who would cause a lot of shit if I didn't.

[squat251]

Originally Posted by grndpndr