Guerrilla Organization...

[Draven]

I have been playing with an idea, about organization of guerrilla cells/units. Basicly the unit has a Leader (Commander) who deals with logistics and support needs. Following this concept you have a series of less ranks and a core set up. Each cell consists of 8 to 12 people and can be expanded into a larger force. Any thoughts..?

Rank Structure & Duty:
Commander: Planning, Support, Logistics & Intelligence Assessment...
Lt. Commander: Commander of a secondary Cell/Unit...
Leutinant:Trained to do the Commanders job.
Staff Sergeant: Head of a 5 men combat team.
Sergeant: Senior member under the Staff Sergeant in the Combat Team
Corperal: Next in line after the Sergeant
Soldier First Class: Experienced Guerrilla Soldier
Soldier: Basic Guerrilla-Soldier
Recruit: Soldier in training (trained as 2 ro 4 at a time)...

Ideally, you would have a basic set up of a unit structured as this;
A commander would have access to sensitive information such as who are and how to contact all Lt. Commanders trained by the Commander. In the case of Lt. Commanders trained by other Lt. Commanders they would be know only to those intial trainers. This allows units to operate completely independant of other units but also their would be a possibility for units to "call in support" from other units.

Example 1.
1st Commander
I
I---Lt. Commander A.....Sub Unit A1 & A2
I
I---Lt. Commander B.....Sub Unit B1

Following this example; a Commander could "call in" support from a Lt. Commander A who can possibly bring in support from two additional sub units. loss of any of the sub units, has zero effect on the combat potential of the initial force. More so, the death or capture of Lt. Commander A does not endanger Lt. Commander B and only threatens then 1st Commander. This allows for small hard to infiltrate groups but also allows for many such groups to function collectively as a larger force.

An example of this would be the initial 1st Commander's unit; pulling a raid on a local jail or prison to free the camptured members of the Lt. Commander A's unit. Thus the 1st Commander "calls in support" from Lt. Commander B whose unit whose sole task is to secure a portion of road that acts as a choke point to allow the 1st Commander's unit to conduct the rescue mission. Neither units would have physical contact with each other and would conduct their training, logistics & intelligence preparation for each task independantly.

Even if all but Sub Units A1, A2 & B1 were lost each Sub Unit would be take the position as 1st Commander and if auxillery sub units were not spintered off their initial selves they would be able to do so at a later date. More so, each of the three cells would be conducting operations independantly.

Unit Combat Structure...
Ideally at full strength such as a unit would have approximately 9 to 12 members;
Commander: The Commanders Job is to train Leutenants, over see the training of recruits, assess intelligence, set-up support positions; safe houses, caches, ect. & plan missions based on resources.

Leutenant & 2 Soldiers (acting as support aids): The newest recruits come soldiers would aid the Leutenant in supporting the training of recruits & mission planning. These "fresh" soldiers would deliever messages, carry packages & drop propaganda in local areas. They would also be tasked with gathering intelligence.

These soldiers either with the Leutenant or Commander would pull rear and flank security for the advanced force; 5-man Combat Team.

5-Man Combat Team
Staff Seargant: The Staff Sergeant would lead a 5 man combat team & be tasked with preparing and training them for thier missions. The Staff Sergeant would them position himself as forward observer for the comabt team whilr the mission was conducted. The five man team can be broken down into smaller; 2 man buddy-teams with a forward observer to act as a fire support and rear guard for the buddy teams (usually with a sniper rifle).

In a very heavy combat situation the combined force of a Commander, Staff Sergeant & Two Support Soldiers can act as a Seconary set of Buddy Teams.

Buddy Team A (Sergeant & Soldier First Class):
The Senior Buddy Team A is made of the most experienced field-leader & soldier. The Sergeant leads a 4 man team in conducting the required mission.

Buddy Team B (Corperal & Soldier):
If the Sergeant is injured or killed the Corperal takes command of the remaining members of the 4 man team and finishes the mission and/or evacuation with observer or command support.

[bloodlusta]

The one flaw in seeing with this is lack of specialist cores.

People don't realize the sheer volume of support every soldier in the field needs.

You will need
Intelligence
Transport
Mechanics/repair
supply acquisition
supply distribution
signals

and the list goes on. Also each of these would need it's own subsection example Intelligence would have many different jobs with in it. And most importably you need people to help them interface with each other.

e.g. soldiers need intel on enemy position.. Soldier-signals-signal distribution- signals-Intelligence (main)-signals-Intelligence (specialized)-signals-soldier

Thats a lot of people to send a message

[Draven]

Well thats exactly why its organized the way it is...

First you're talk a guerrilla-army and not a regular army. That requires allot more hands on activity. Much like a militia; the guerrilla-unit must gather/buy their own supplies. Each member must gather there own intelligence, support themselves and gather/store their own supplies.

Specialized units are irrelevant to a guerrilla war; well in the initial onset anyway. Beginning with the inital unit or cell, they can create additional cells that can specialize if need be. However if each unit/cell is organized to be independant & self-contained. The focus of guerrilla warfare is mobility, stealth, surprise & offense. Specialization will most likely occur at the local level. Guerrilla who live near shipping routes, ship yards, river valleys, swamps or beachs will have a need for marine/amphibious warfare then someone living in the mountains or a desert.

I have my own opinions but most basic guerrilla-soldiers are skilled at land nav, field craft, basic marksmanship, improvised explosives/demolition, tactics and stealth & camouflage. Many guerrillas have no use for things like airborne units. So I'm curious as to what you see as Specialized Cores; as much of what you mentioned would be based on the individual cell's own abilities, planning and objectives. Could you explain that a bit better for me?

[bloodlusta]

I was thinking you were meaning on a larger scale. So you were having maybe up to 20 of these groups under one command. If it is only a group of 8 or so then you don't really need a structure apart from "Im the boss, if im shot he's in charge'

[Draven]

Exactly, then I can expand it into a regular size force as such...
Command Force:
Commander: Deals with planning and intellienge, may have single platoon specially trained for field intelligence directly under command.
Executive Officer: (Lt. Commander) Deals with logistics and support structure aided by a platoon reserved for support & logicistics, answers to Commander.
Field Commander (Senor Staff Sergeant) Incharge of commanding 4 ot 5 platoons in the field and/or the training of new recruits, answers to Commander...

Combat Force:
Platoon Commander: (Staff Sergeant)Commands soldiers via squad leaders, Answers to Field Commander...
Platoon Officer: (Luetenant) Deals with platoon logistics, Answers to XO...
Squad Leader: (Senor Sergeant) Commands two 4-man or 5-man fire teams, via
Team Leader: (Sergeant) commands a 4 to 5 man fire team made up of 2-man buddy teams...
Buddy Teams: (as before with Jr. Sergeants and/or Corporals) in charge.

Technically given a significant rise in popular support each cell slowly expand into such a force. Consisting of a Commander, XO & Field Commander at the command level (3 people) & 4 platoon sized elements which would have over lapping combat & support roles; (36 to 46 per platoon; 144 to 184) which would remain well hidden until required. If a sudden increase in combat forces were possible and could be done in realitive secrecy such dispersed force could deal a great deal more damage. If the Command Group is lost each platoon would effectively become independant splinter cells and carry on the fight.

Ideally the Command Group would be self-sufficent, and the each platoon organized independantly of the rest. Each platoon leader would answer directly to the Field Commander alone and have no access to the Commander or XO. At which point the whole force can operate as both a guerrilla force independantly or as a regular military force when required and would at full strength each cell could be organized into a company of 279 personnel over time. With each unit having this ability to expand as such 10 cells couls easily become 2,790 over a matter of years and still form additional smaller guerrilla cells...

[bloodlusta]

The problem with independence is that you will be unable to have people specializing in certain aspects. I mean you could have someone who was physically weak and cowardly but was brilliant with communication technology. Are you going to make him fight?

[Draven]

Originally Posted by bloodlusta

The problem with independence is that you will be unable to have people specializing in certain aspects. I mean you could have someone who was physically weak and cowardly but was brilliant with communication technology. Are you going to make him fight?

Yes & No, I'm gonna have him fight & train to fight... The goal is that each cell causes its own damage and harassing of the enemy forces. However, ideally each cell should train and 2 to 100 others who can form their own cells and do the same. You want leaders at every position and to trained to do the job of the person above them. Thats why every soldier in every military learns to shot a rifle and assault an objective, even if they are flipping pancakes for living.

If someone can handle logistics, commincation technology and so on. Then their methods would be far different from someone else who just knows how to fight. But, neither can you afford to have some techno-geek who can't fight & may well find themselves in that position. Independence allows each cell to formulate their own ways of doing stuff; a communcation "expert" will focus on the transfer of information and that requires being able to get that information; same combat skills come in handy with that well.

What gonna happen when the time comes to take command of a Cell and the Commander can't teach his men to fight? Its one thing to have a cell that specializes in communication but if no one is fighting who are you communicating with? When a larger sized element is formed such a person has room to specialize but as a small celled unit you have to be a "Jack of all trades & master of none." Adaptablity insures survival, specialization traps you...

[asdew]

Another thing you've missed is Basic Medic Training. Could be very Important in the Field.

[Draven]

Originally Posted by asdew

Another thing you've missed is Basic Medic Training. Could be very Important in the Field.

I didn't miss it, but with a guerrilla force medical needs will be tough to get. So your buddies are gonna be your doctor. You can't go to an ER for gun shot wounds and not raise suspicion. Even if you have a small clinic and a Dr. available to you you still won't have the proper equiptment or staff for serious injuries...

[RWFJ]

i dont really have much information or knowledge to tell you the right or wrong way! but you should at least consider how the I.R.A. used to operate in norhtern ireland during the troubles they had to function with most of the resources of the british army down there necks and to the most part they were still very successful! worth a look into!

[Widigo]

Where do you plan on recruiting from? I think anything is possible if you go about it correctly. One thing problem I see is a way for grunts to identify one another. Unless they are trained differently from every other army/gang/militia they will not be recognized from a ways away. There would need to be some universal code that didn't stand out and would never be accidentally said for identifying members. What if you are doing two different missions and wind up taking fire in the same building you need to identify friends right away.

I think you need to consider the basics. I like your plan, but you need to grow slow and learn fast. How do you plan to support this army of yours? Also, what is the ultimate point? Armys are usually built to take or protect. Drug lords have solders to protect their investment and take more for themselves. African Dictators have armys to take land, America has an army to protect it's interests. What is the goal of your army? When I think of civilian ran forces there is usual one point and that's money. Someone is doing something illegal and needs the support. Making enemies along the way that cause a need for an army.

Also, Medical isn't that hard. There are plenty of Med School drop outs, and men trained as nurses that would take the extra money, people with the training that would take your money.

Another thing is that if you are doing something illegal, or not, to make money you will need to organize that. Grab what you want is never a good way to run a company, and running a company is essentially what you are talking about. If I had a twenty man crew and we stole cars there would be a division of labor. There would be running crews with a driver, a grabber, and a gunman. There would be mechanic crews, there would be guards on rotation. Also, you need to consider supplies. How do you plan to outfit an army with uniforms (even if it is not "uniform" they need combat gear), ammo and weapons. Not to mention explosive chemicals, and other things. Food and water. Do you have plans for professional, well tested, explosives or will ducktape, AP, and pill bottles be how you arm a demolition soldier?

You need to micro manage. If I were you I would pose as someone that sees most of the groups. An accountant, a mechanic, someone that has a reason the grunts won't question to visit your investments. That way no one knows you are in charge and you get to see first hand that your making money and that you are properly represented in the field. It's an old trick. Have a good friend pose as the leader, you yourself pose as the bodyguard. That way no one knows you are the one calling the shots. It could work the same for big groups.

[-SR-]

If you ever need a connection in Holland. Pay me and i'll take care of it LOL

[Draven]

Originally Posted by Widigo

Where do you plan on recruiting from?

Well I don't plan to recruit anyone. Typically as RWFJ suggested using groups like the IRA for example; members were recruited either from the family and friends of already existing members or from younger man & women who want to revolt or repell a rogue government. I was focused more on organization then the other details...

Originally Posted by Widigo

I think you need to consider the basics. I like your plan, but you need to grow slow and learn fast. How do you plan to support this army of yours?

With Jobs; either legal or illegal, donations and so on...

Originally Posted by Widigo

Also, what is the ultimate point? Armys are usually built to take or protect. Drug lords have solders to protect their investment and take more for themselves. African Dictators have armys to take land, America has an army to protect it's interests. What is the goal of your army?

My goal is organization not the creation of a guerrilla army...

Originally Posted by Widigo

Also, you need to consider supplies. How do you plan to outfit an army with uniforms (even if it is not "uniform" they need combat gear), ammo and weapons. Not to mention explosive chemicals, and other things. Food and water. Do you have plans for professional, well tested, explosives or will ducktape, AP, and pill bottles be how you arm a demolition soldier?

You take from your enemy, ambush patrols to steal their weapons and equiptment. Raid their supplies to feed and arm yourself. Well again using the other guerrilla organizations as an example; Maoist Guerrillas took weapons from the (at the time invading) Japanese Army and the Chinese Imperial Army, the Viet Cong get their weapons from China, the Commies had foriegn support as well as took weapons from the Cuban Army. The IRA used the weapons they stole from the British Army, smuggled; stolen or bought firearms in from other countries and improvised weapons of their own.

For that matter I won't have need for a demolitions soldier. I'd have guerrilla soldiers who know how to use demolitions. Proper training and varietly of skills beat technology everytime.
Use Rank as a Template for Required Skills:
Soldier:
How to Report Information
Hand-to-Hand Combatives
Knife Fighting & Sentry Removal
Rifle Marksmanship
Stealth, Camouflage & Disguise
Small Teams Tactics
Basic Fighting Position Construction
First Aid & Land Nav
Corperal:
Ghillie Suit Construction
Tracking
Sniper Firing Positions
Basic Leadship Principles
Sergeant:
Demolitions & Improvised Demolitions
Basic Construction of Field Bases
Cache & Storage Methods
Staff Sergeant:
Advanced Leadership Principles
Advanced First Aid
Basic Logistics & Organization
Leutenant/Commander:
Cyphers and Code
Advanced Logistics & Organization
Military Strategy

I'd prefer to go with an organization like IRA where they rely on small well trained cells, then some group like the Taliban with a massive number of not well trained cannon fodder.

Originally Posted by Widigo

You need to micro manage.

Oh hell no!!! Micro managing kills the point of that guerrilla of organization. More so, the idea of having a small number of well trained guerrillas is that they know their job and have their skills down. That allows me to concentrate on more important things and not have to micro-manage. Centralized organizations fall apart once you start striking at that center...

Originally Posted by RWFJ

i dont really have much information or knowledge to tell you the right or wrong way! but you should at least consider how the I.R.A. used to operate in norhtern ireland during the troubles they had to function with most of the resources of the british army down there necks and to the most part they were still very successful! worth a look into!

I Used the Viet Cong, Cubans, IRA & US Army as a base foundation in the format...

[Demo Spec]

and the higher ranked soldiers would know all of the skills that the ranks below him know?

[Draven]

Originally Posted by Demo Spec

and the higher ranked soldiers would know all of the skills that the ranks below him know?

Exactly, aside from the initial recruit training were you "recruit" has little to no access to the rest of the unit. Everyone is trained to do the job of the person above them.

[Widigo]

Who do you have that is already trained in those areas listed, and is it the cell's responsibility to keep up withe every advance in tech that could compromise a mission. It just seems a little unrealistic to have a small group of people: working jobs, taking from the "enemy", defending themselves, advancing their own tech (if they are not properly supplied then they will spend a lot of time mending boots, wounds, and fixing guns and preparing ammo and explosives), and train their subordinates, as well as normal stuff (dishes, trash, showers and eating. It seems like having to keep up with the enemy as well will take a toll on the cell. You could wind up with groups of men with no quality of life and no reason to die for you, who are now overworked.

My thing is that it could work, but if I were to approach this as an enemy I see a few key weaknesses. The lack of prowess, the crudeness, and the overall workload of soldiers turns what should be a tool made for killing (a soldier) into something that is having to do everything else. Rank can not fix that entirely. There is also the fact that individual cells are easy to remove. They would not be fully informed on the tech advances and strategies of the enemy as a whole, so they would not know to advance or change tactics themselves. You made a system that is hard to remove, but not overly threatening. Sure they could hurt outlaying settlements, but a cell is easily removed because of the workload and minimal size, and it would take huge coordination of blocks of troops to overthrow the enemy. Which means you are putting the faith of anywhere from a hundred to thousands of men in your hands based on the theory that you can lead them all to push the right settlement at the right time to destroy an empire. A lot of pressure on you, and not a huge moral booster.

it could work, but I think that there are areas in which the simple plan of not having specific forces, and not having key money making areas and substance providers could hurt in the grand scope. Also, armys need a face. It's a moral thing. Nobody dies without cause, they do it for money or love, that's all that really motivates men.

[bloodlusta]

My point exactly! It would work with a single group but it means that you will not be able to coordinate anything big. Just a few car bombs ect

[Draven]

Originally Posted by Widigo

Who do you have that is already trained in those areas listed, and is it the cell's responsibility to keep up withe every advance in tech that could compromise a mission. It just seems a little unrealistic to have a small group of people: working jobs, taking from the "enemy", defending themselves, advancing their own tech (if they are not properly supplied then they will spend a lot of time mending boots, wounds, and fixing guns and preparing ammo and explosives), and train their subordinates, as well as normal stuff (dishes, trash, showers and eating. It seems like having to keep up with the enemy as well will take a toll on the cell. You could wind up with groups of men with no quality of life and no reason to die for you, who are now overworked.

You are putting too much thought into it, first off all Guerrilla Warfare relies on popular support. Friendly, non-combat support from the general population. Allot of what you mentioned has no value on battlefield, dishes are a simple as a camp style mess kit. No one is gonna fix a gun in the field and no one is mending boots a guerrilla army is not a Regular Army with supply lines and government support. Also Guerrillas do not defend themselves they out manuver the enemy; thus the Sun Tzu sayings;
"When the enemy adavances we retreat."
"When the enemy retreats we adavance."
When the enemy camps we harass."

Originally Posted by Widigo

My thing is that it could work, but if I were to approach this as an enemy I see a few key weaknesses. The lack of prowess, the crudeness, and the overall workload of soldiers turns what should be a tool made for killing (a soldier) into something that is having to do everything else. Rank can not fix that entirely. There is also the fact that individual cells are easy to remove. They would not be fully informed on the tech advances and strategies of the enemy as a whole, so they would not know to advance or change tactics themselves. You made a system that is hard to remove, but not overly threatening. Sure they could hurt outlaying settlements, but a cell is easily removed because of the workload and minimal size, and it would take huge coordination of blocks of troops to overthrow the enemy. Which means you are putting the faith of anywhere from a hundred to thousands of men in your hands based on the theory that you can lead them all to push the right settlement at the right time to destroy an empire. A lot of pressure on you, and not a huge moral booster.

Widigo, you just discribed Guerrilla Warfare; it is a war of attrition against a larger and stronger force. It relies on being small & unnoticed. Yes, the work load on a single small cell is fairly great but as the cell proves successful and it gains supporters you'll have people fighting back but not connected to you and you'll have connected cells as you're own force grows.

Unlike the traditional Guerrilla or Terrorist Cell organized around individual non-connected cells under one banner; this allows a guerrilla unit to opperate but be interconnected to form larger units. More so, no one needs hundreds or thousands if men until the guerrilla cell is expanded into a regular military force. You seem to not have a good grasp of what guerrilla warfare is compared to regular military forces...

Originally Posted by Widigo

it could work, but I think that there are areas in which the simple plan of not having specific forces, and not having key money making areas and substance providers could hurt in the grand scope. Also, armys need a face. It's a moral thing. Nobody dies without cause, they do it for money or love, that's all that really motivates men.

All of that is a matter of popular support, and each cell can be small enough to use the enemy's gear and weapons. An enemy squad or platoon could easily supply such a small unit. Thr initial small unit could easily stock up weapons and ammo and supply a secondary unit. Until a regular force can be set up by that time the enemy should have spent so much time dealing with losses they don't want to deal with such a force.

More so, you seem to be missing that the nature of guerrilla warfare is not to directly engage the enemy except when needed. Guerrilla warfare is about manuver and concealment not holding ground and holding a frontline. Direct contact is limited to Raids and Ambushs and everything else is a matter of Sabotage, Espionage & Assassination. But again the issue isn't how to fight but how to organize...

Originally Posted by bloodlusta

My point exactly! It would work with a single group but it means that you will not be able to coordinate anything big. Just a few car bombs ect

Just but a few stategically placed car bombs can do allot. Look at the IRA they won mostly by propaganda and a few well placed bombs, assassinations and stategic raids. You don't need constant fighting just a successful fighting...

[Draven]

Originally Posted by Demo Spec

this may have been answered in ur page long posts, i didnt read only scimmed , but what about funding? and second, this is a guerilla army, taking most of what they need from the enemy, for the most part taking care of funding, but what about the start up, u cant just simply rob a guy with nothing,

and last question, what about training, obviously to have to have a site somewhere...

How hard is it to start a guerrilla army? Well you can/must use your own money initially but you could also sell drugs, rob banks & so on. An ambush with a knife could do just as easily. Also you can rob a guy with a brick or rock if you want. Funding is extremely easy; steal, sale or kill for it. You just have to becareful not to ingage the civilian population which is what will aid you with popular support...

Training is an issue only where marksmanship is concerned as one needs atleast 100 to 300 yards for marksmanship training and practice. All else can be done in a 10 x 10 room, a back yard or so on. You can used paint ball and airsoft to get small teams tactics down pat. An abandoned house or warehouse is perfect for this, a bar or any wooden area. The only issue comes up as were does one get that initial training; for myself being prior military I already have most of it but for a straight civilian having no concept of those skills, it takes on a different area of study.