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-- Posted by The Great Milenko on 3:40 am on Mar. 11, 2002
I was reading up on making picric acid and i wanted to know if anyone knew of were i could obtain some methyl alcohol?
I thought perhaps a hardware store, i'll ring them up tomorrow, i know that they put a small amount of it in methylated spirits so it can't be drank as a beverage (no that, that stops the aborigines LOL), would there be anyway of extracting it from the metho?
Oh and any comments, warnings or expeirences concerning picric acid would also be welcome.
Thanx :)
-- Posted by oxHighVoltagexo on 5:21 am on Mar. 11, 2002
Hey man I found a web page with all kinda science stuff and I just ordered myself some Petroeum Ether from it at a decent price...Just make sure you read over the shipping and handling charges policy cause UPS and FEDEX have some weird policies on that stuff because its chemicals...But anyway here ya go..WWW.ScienceAlliance.COM......Later guys PEACE
-- Posted by The Great Milenko on 12:03 am on Mar. 12, 2002
Pfft, yeah pity it's in texas!! :angry:
Can you imagine how much it would cost to ship it to Aus!!
Of course i've checked out websites about ordering stuff like this! but of course i dont live in the US or the UK so theres no real chance of ordering it...and plus anyone who orders anything strange, or could be used to make explosives is reported to the piggies!! which would let you play around with your nice new beaker of nitric acid for a few hours before the fuzz surrounds your f'n house!!, but hey atleast you tried to answer my question, unlike some! *cough cough* zambosan *cough cough*
Oh yeah and in another recipe that i read about making picric acid (which is probably the more trustworthy one), says that you can just use any alcohol of a 95% conc. would that work? i'd most probably use methylated spirits seeing as though it's so cheap and easily accessible, but what would be the best alcohol to use?
(Edited by The Great Milenko at 12:51 pm on Mar. 12, 2002)
-- Posted by Just0nePepsi on 8:45 am on Mar. 12, 2002
This stuff I got called Absorbine Jr.(For muscles pains) has 1.27% Menthol Alchohol. Thats the only place I can see it in more household type stuff. Im not sure if they sell that in Aus or not. Not sure how much you need either but I hope it helps somewhat
-- Posted by Zambosan on 9:42 am on Mar. 12, 2002
Milenko, I've made picric acid once before. I used isopropyl alcohol to remove the binders from the aspirin tablets. I got 95% at a local drugstore for about $0.80 USD. Acetylsalicilic acid is soluble in all alcohols, so whatever you can get will work; you just want to avoid much water, because that will dissolve the binders as well, and they play havoc on the reaction. Once you recrystallize the acetylsalicylic acid, be prepared to spend some time crunching it back up, or use a coffee grinder... the shit solidifies HARD!!!
When you add the powder to the conc. sulfuric, do it a *little* bit at a time! If you have a flour/sugar sifter that would be ideal, or use a sieve. This is not so much for safety, but because when the shit hits the acid, it forms a slightly lavender, very hard solid. I dropped an entire teaspoon in at once, and it formed a solid "nugget", which took a very looong time to crush up and get to dissolve. So a little bit at a time will actually shorten the amount of time you need to spend.
When you add the potassium nitrate, do this in a VERY ventilated area! My improvised munitions book said NOTHING of the toxic, thick red nitrogen trioxide gas that would be liberated... NO3 is very poisonous, and will chemically attack just about anything organic (including your lungs & mucous membranes). A dust mask is not a gas mask, so that won't help you one whit.
When you quench the solution into an ice bath and filter, first scoop the floating ice cubes out. Before actually filtering, have another ice bath solution ready and as cold as humanly possible to wash the sulfuric acid off of the crystals... I started using tap water, and over half my beautiful, brilliant yellow needle-shaped crystals promptly disappeared down the drain... I wanted to cry.
Another thing no manual will mention is that picric acid can cause irreversible kidney and liver damage in the bloodstream, and is very easily absorbed through the skin. Wear gloves at *all* times when performing the reaction, and for God's sake, wear some goggles when working with acids or any other chemicals. You can't replace your eyes. And do *not* store picric acid in any metal containers, it will attack most metals forming picrates, which are markedly more sensitive and may spontaneously detonate, taking the even more powerful picric acid with it.
And that's it. :biggrin:
-- Posted by oxHighVoltagexo on 5:24 pm on Mar. 12, 2002
Okay Zambosan...I read all that but im no brainiac and or genius...Im also not real knowledgable with chemicals...Any chance you could start at the beginning take 5 minutes and type step by step what to do to make it? Also if you can could you put a list of "Things you need" and ingredients at the top? Sorry im a retard but im learning....Thanks again...PEACE
-- Posted by The Great Milenko on 2:05 am on Mar. 13, 2002
Sweet thanx alot xam :)
I'll use methylated spirits for my PA,
so should i use a bicarb and water solution to filter it and neutralize the sulfuric acid?
And i guess i'll have to use coffee filters to filter it, i'll post the recipe i'm going to use, so you can point out any things that might be dangerous in the recipe, one thing i want to know is that it says to place the container with the sulfuric acid and acetylsalicilic acid mix in a oil bath, is this right? it seems to me that heating up somthing like that would'nt be that good of an idea, but perhaps i'm wrong, anyway heres the recipe, and as for you Highvoltage, i hope that you have alot of explosives experience if you are going to try this, but hey it's your life/hands/eyes on the line not mine, so have fun:
PICRIC ACID (trinitrophenol)
DETONATION VELOCITY - 4965 M/sec. @0.97 G/cc
6510 M/sec. @1.4 G/cc
7480 M/sec. @1.7 G/cc
FRICTION SENSITIVITY - More sensitive than T.N.T. but not substantially.
Metals should be coated to ensure the formation of
picrate salts. Coating copper tubing or rifle cases
with urethane plastic spray could prevent this form
happening.
BEHAVIOR TO FLAME - Small quantities burn with a sooty flame after melting.
Large quantities can transform the deflagration into
detonation in some rare instances.
Picric acid is a good choice of explosive base charges in caps.
Relative performance would be 120% (T.N.T.=100%). Nitrophenols have been
with us for a while. Their creation from nitric acid and animal horn was
the first of these discoveries. Nearly 100 years passed before researchers
found out it could be made to explode. It is this relative insensitivity of
the material and it's good primary sensitivity yield many used for this
explosive. It is very stable in storage with samples from late 1800's
showing little signs of deterioration. The only reason that we do not use
PA as an explosive in modern ordinance is mostly from a cost standpoint. PA
can be reacted with ammonium hydroxide to form "Explosive D". This is a
superb shaped charge explosive and does find some demolition and
specialized munition loading. Brisance is very high for picric acid and it
will detonate easily from the primary explosives in the primary section of
the publication. Picric acid is poisonous and all contact should be
avoided. This process uses the phenol byproduct used everyday as an
analgesic. Aspirin (acetylsalicylic acid) in it's purified form, sulfuric
acid (98%) and sodium or potassium nitrate are the ingredients. Aspirin is
available in any drug store or supermarket. Sulfuric acid is available at
janitorial supply houses and plumbing suppliers. Battery acid that has been
boiled until white fumes appear will also work. Sodium or potassium nitrate
should be available from hobby stores and as stump remover in garden
stores. The methanol carrier can be found at hardware stores and from
janitorial supplies. Caution should be used in handling the product of the
process below. Contact should be avoided. Contact includes breathing dust
and exposure of the skin or any other part of the body. Liver and kidney
failure could result. Use gloves and retire any utensil that will be used
in the process.
MANUFACTURE
Crush 100 aspirin tablets. Powder these crushed aspirin tablets. To
them add 500 ml alcohol (95%) This alcohol will dissolve the
acetylsalicylic acid in the aspirin and leave all the pill fillers in solid
form in the bottom. Stir this aspirin/alcohol liquid for five minutes
while warming it gently. Filter the warm liquid and keep the filtrate
(liquid) and discard the remainder. Evaporate this liquid in a shallow pan
in a hot water or oil bath. Collect the dried acetylsalicylic acid
crystals. Place 700 ml sulfuric acid in the bottom of a gallonjar. To this
acid is added the acetylsalicylic acid crystals from above. This gallonjar
is placed in an oil bath (electric frying pan would be easiest but flame
heat will work). This is heated with stirring until all the crystals are
dissolved in the hot acid. The crystals having dissolved will allow you to
begin the addition of sodium or potassium nitrate. This addition is done in
three portions, allowing the acid mixture to cool some between additions.
CAUTION: The addition of the nitrate to the hot acid will generate nitrogen
dioxide which is a deadly poison. This step should be carried out
with excellent ventilation!
This liquid will react vigorously, as the 75 grams of either of the
nitrates are added to the solution in this three part addition. The
solution should turn red and then back to the yellow-orange color. After
the additions let the solution cool to room temperature while stirring
occasionally. Pour this room temperature solution into 1500 ml of cracked
ice and water (1/4 ice). The product will precipitate out immediately as a
brilliant yellow compound. Filter through a paper towel or 5 drip coffee
filters in a funnel. Wash these crystals with 450 ml cold water. Discard
the filtrate (liquid remaining after filtering). The yellow crystals are
trinitrophenol. These crystals need to be dried for 3 hours on a boiling
water bath or on a 1O5 degree C. oil bath. They are then ready to load into
a detonator as a base explosive. Avoid contact with the yellow composition
as it is highly poisonous. Wear gloves (viton) when working with this
explosive.
-- Posted by somefukinsnapov on 2:09 am on Mar. 13, 2002
milenko, im looking for isopropyl alcohol aswell ,but all i can find is isocol..644grams/litre.
i need as close to 100%for another experiment,but ive found u have to go to a medical supplier??!! so isocol looks about the best fer us aussies unless your a med!
-- Posted by The Great Milenko on 2:15 am on Mar. 13, 2002
lol yeah i wonder what kinda of degree you'd have to do to get a liscence so you could just stroll up to one of those snooty chemical supply places and just get tons of kool stuff and they would'nt think twice about it?
But what is it you want isopropyl alcohol for?
-- Posted by oxHighVoltagexo on 6:39 am on Mar. 13, 2002
Thanks Melinko...Nice directions, Very clear...But when you say its harmful to your skin are clothes enough to stop this stuff? and what kinda of mask should I wear? full face? Fuck I think I just need a chemical weapons suit..Maybe ill go raid the army for one or two hehehehe No but seriously will clothes block the fumes? And should all pores on my body be covered??
-- Posted by oxHighVoltagexo on 6:42 am on Mar. 13, 2002
wait I forgot to ask you something Milenko...Sorry to post yet again on this but you said about chemical web pages and the fuzz being at your house after ordering items...do you honestly think it looks odd that a regular US citizen just ordered 500ml of Petroleum Ether from a web page in Texas?? And if you DO think the cops are comming would they normally wait until I receive the goods??
-- Posted by Zambosan on 10:49 am on Mar. 13, 2002
That's a much better set of directions than the IM manual... wish I'd had it before I got poisonous yellow stains all over my hands. :angry: Fortunately, my liver & kidneys still seem to be functioning fine...
Do *not* use a bicarb solution, just plain freezing cold water as the recipe states. Remember, trinitrophenol is an acid as well, and it would react with the basic sodium bicarb in a titration reaction along with the sulfuric residue... and you'd lose some of the stuff.
-- Posted by ilovekayla on 9:51 pm on Mar. 13, 2002
okay.... now... um tgm... i was thinking about making this... but... i dont know if i want to lol... you said that you need alot of experence with explosives.... i have some knowledge not all taht much... and im just getting into a chemistry class now.. but if you dont think that i should make this what do you think i should make... ive only made pn.... and then i got yelled at and yes that was by my mother yes im only 15 but i can learn cant i??? but i dont know what to make... son if you could help me that would be cool... thanks
-- Posted by The Great Milenko on 12:09 am on Mar. 14, 2002
Yeah i thought that bicarb might fek it up seeing as though it is picric acid after all. Only you can tell wether or not you have enough expeirence to make PA ilovekayla, if you've made AP i spose this would'nt be too much of a leap forward, apart from the fact that AP isnt as deadly, noxious gas wise, and no i dont think that someone ordering ether would make the fuzz drop by highvoltage, i was talking about somthing more along the lines of chlorates, perchlorates and AN, i'd also like to know what kind of safety precautions i'd have to take to make PA, i'd wear proper clothing and i'd work in a ventilated area, but what kind of precautions should i take against the nitrogen dioxide?
-- Posted by ilovekayla on 12:49 am on Mar. 14, 2002
the only thing that i can think of would be a gas mask....
-- Posted by Zambosan on 9:20 am on Mar. 14, 2002
Best case, a fume hood. Since you're not likely to have one at home, I'd suggest doing it outside if possible, with a portable fan on just to make sure it blows the gases away from you.
-- Posted by ilovekayla on 10:32 am on Mar. 14, 2002
why doesent he just use a gas mask?
-- Posted by The Great Milenko on 12:39 am on Mar. 15, 2002
Because since o'l bitch laden made everyone paranoid, gas mask prices are skyrocketing, i guess i'll just do it outside with a fan going, i'm going to do it soon, i just have too get the KN03, i was thinking of using the old filtering high nitrate soil, anyone successfully done this? or is it just a load of tripe?
-- Posted by Zambosan on 9:31 am on Mar. 15, 2002
If you get soil from a barn or farmyard where animals have occupied it for a long time, you may have a chance. Several biological processes involving bacteria convert urea to ammonia to nitrite to nitrates. But you may have some issues getting pure enough material, and that could damage your yield or possibly ruin the reaction.
-- Posted by ilovekayla on 11:52 am on Mar. 15, 2002
ive tried and it works well... i herd about what zam said a while ago so i pee'd on my lawn in the same spot for like a year and then dug it up and used it in the kno3 process and i got alot of yeild... when i took it out of the ground it already had pottassium sitting on the side of it... :)
-- Posted by Boosa on 12:16 pm on Mar. 15, 2002
and how long do I have to piss on the same place b4 it will work!?
-- Posted by ilovekayla on 12:30 pm on Mar. 15, 2002
tow but as i said i was doing it for about a year
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