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Organic peroxides


— Posted by Zambosan on 8:21 am on Feb. 7, 2002

I’ve made HMTD several times, and thoroughly enjoyed the stuff.  I see an awful lot of experiences of people making acetone peroxide on the ‘net (as well as some live video!), and I assume it’s more popular because hexamine takes a little more effort to find (or make) than acetone.  However, I get the impression that TATP is a good deal more sensitive, and the detonation velocity figures seem comparable (3500-5000 m/s).  In addition, TATP is very volatile, whereas HMTD is *pretty* stable in my experience, particularly if you do a good washing job.  I’ve never made TATP… and I suppose what I’m wondering is whether anyone has ever played extensively with both.  If TATP has significantly more brisance, it might be worth making.  Otherwise, HMTD seems to be superior in pretty much all aspects.  Any takers?


— Posted by Hergor on 4:36 pm on Feb. 7, 2002

hey Zambosan,

where did you get informations on TATP?

i searched the web, result: lots of news articles telling me that some terrorist tried to hide it in his shoe – nothing else. i searched all the handbooks i own, nothing at all.

would you mind posting something about the materials you need to make it and the technical data you got?

thanks


— Posted by The Great Milenko on 7:57 pm on Feb. 8, 2002

Well personally i’d think that around my area i’d be hard pressed trying to find hexamine, so i go with acetone, but this is the first i’ve heard of tatp, this intruiges me, i’ve heard of mekap and other sorts of peroxides but not this one, it sounds interesting.


— Posted by Hergor on 3:00 pm on Feb. 9, 2002

heya! after some 3 hours of search i’ve been able to locate this:

“I made AP dimeric and trimeric.

First the dimeric:
90ml acetone
150 ml H2O2 30%
7,5ml H2SO4 96%

The reaction when add conc. sulfuric acid is great,add a drop after a while,and alwais vigorous stirring.
Let the solution in a cool place for all night.
The next morning wash the precipitate with cold water(distillate water is
alwais better),and put the crystal to dry.
Some people write : use in 1 week. Yes just.

Firecracker:with aluminium foil , toilet paper(45g AP) 125 cc bottle
After 3 weeks , the crystals should be volatylized , but not withstanding this,the detonation is MUCH MORE violent compared to fresh AP. I TRIED THIS.

Reaction to shock:
Hit a small quantity(like 1 head of a match)of AP with an hammer and will detonate.

Chemical reaction with conc. sulfuric acid 96%:
Put the crystals on aluminium foil(so will can use again the acid,see later)with an angle up.
Drop 1 still of conc. H2SO4 on the angle up and go 2 meter away.
When the acid touch the crystals you will see a great and fast flame.
Put some crystal on the remaining acid on alluminium foil and you will see another flame.

Timer delay with gelatine capsules:
The original method used a mix acid/glicerine.I used only acid and water.
I tried:
1)Conc. H2SO4 :
after 5 minutes : nothing
add some drops of water : the temperature is warm , after 3 minutes the capsule is melt.
2)Conc. H2SO4 then add some drops of water : after 2 minues the capsule is melt.

Considerations:
First put acid , then water , if not the reaction is too slowly and the capsule is bad melt.When the conc. acid touch the crystals , IMMEDIATELY burns.
But when the acid is diluted and not pure(cause the gelatine capsule)the crystals don’t burn.

Now the trimeric:
200ml acetone
200ml H2O2
50ml HCl

Good:You can put all at once the acid and will not splatter nothing.
The reaction and the final product are better than the dimeric form(about +35-40% bi weight of product)
Bad:When you wash the crystals,the fumes will BURN your eyes even with
goggles.

WARNING!
Use a diving mask…(the next time I will use this).”

taken from ‘My experience with dimeric and trimeric acetone peroxide’ rtldnl@tiscalinet.it in ‘alt.engr.explosives’

“Triacetone Triperoxide:

O-C(CH3)2-O
| |
O O
| |
(CH3)2C – O-O – C(CH3)2

“Trimeric acetone peroxide exploded violently on heating, impact or friction.
It is highly brisant and very sensitive. It may be detonated under or water
or when it contains up to 25% water.”

Flame sensitivity – burns violently and sometimes detonates.
Heat sensitivity – depends on temperature. It either vaporizes without
decomposition, decomposes without flame, burned with a smoky flame or
detonated.
Brisance – 34.1g sand crushed.
Detonation velocity – 5290 m/sec in 6.3mm column with density of 1.2.
3065 m/sec in 15 mm column with density of 0.68 and 5300 m/sec with
density of 1.18.
Friction sensitivity – extreme
Impact sensitivity – 500g weight, 10 cm (in other words – extremely). The
references state that it is one of the most sensitive explosives known.
Power – by Trauzl Test – 10g gave 250 cc expansion vs 285 cc for TNT.

Due to its high volatility and sensitivity, it is deemed unuseable.

Both compounds sublime, even at room temperature.

Information abstracted from Fedoroff and others, PATR 2700, Vol 1
pages A41R – A44R, 1960.

The compounds are listed in Beil and Sax, among many others.”

taken from (see above), origin of copy unknown

considering this i’d say keep your hands off of this stuff. it seems much too unstable. (at least to me)
on the other hand don’t trust what is said by someone you don’t know.

(Edited by Hergor at 3:03 pm on Feb. 9, 2002)


— Posted by The Great Milenko on 4:47 am on Feb. 10, 2002

umm…..yeah thanx hergor…..lol we know it’s unstable it’s not world breaking news, but yeah thanx for going to the trouble of finding that, but i think the thread is about tatp and hmtd…but the acetone peroxide needs up to 3 days b4 all of the crystals have formed, so i’d go with a recipe like the one in the makeshift aresenal, and under no circumstances use the one from the AC!! he’s such a dumbass, in his recipie it says that if no crystals have formed within 10-20 mins that you should put it in a 40c bath to warm it up. well first of all i doubt any crystals would form in just 10-20 mins! and if you were to let the temp get even over 5-10c it would be more than likely prone to producing the dimeric rather than the trimeric, which is bad! because you want the trimeric form, because the dimeric is much more unstable and less powerfull. and i bet that if you warmed the solution to 40c it would probably turn all pear shaped on you and detonate.

EDIT: Oh yeah and your recipe says to use sulfuric acid, well sulfuric acid is ok but hydrocloric acid should be used instead, because sulfuric acid has a tendency to generate more heat in this reaction and thus more prone to creating the dimeric form rather than the trimeric form. Most ppl would say that sulfuric acid makes the dimeric every time if used in this reaction but if you were to keep the temp at the right level it should still make the trimeric, but you should still always use hydrochloric anyway.

(Edited by The Great Milenko at 2:57 pm on Feb. 10, 2002)


— Posted by Hergor on 6:51 am on Feb. 10, 2002

well, ok. thanks for reminding me.

you mentioned tatp was in the makeshift arsenal.
well, i guess i’ve got some ‘old’ version of it or something, because mine starts with hmtd goes right to AN, saying nothing about acetone peroxide…

got to get a new one.

i was just thinking to provide all the others with some info ’bout it, not knowing you already have it.

oops… 🙁


— Posted by The Great Milenko on 1:53 am on Feb. 11, 2002

LOL stress man it’s kool 🙂


— Posted by Zambosan on 10:03 am on Feb. 11, 2002

Sorry for mixing terms, probably lead to some of the confusion.  TATP is just a mnemonic for triacetone triperoxide, which is the trimer of acetone peroxide.  It is the more stable of the two isomers, largely because it is cyclic (the ASCII molecular structure in the article Hergor nabbed doesn’t show the cyclic structure).  I was just curious if anyone’s ever made both HMTD and AP.  If it’s a lot more powerful, than it may be worth it.  If not, HMTD sounds a bit more friendly for storage & handling.


— Posted by Hergor on 4:45 pm on Feb. 11, 2002

to that formula:

i don’t get it. how are the (CH3)2 groups on the right attached to the rest and what about that last O?
i imagine it somehow like this:

CH3
|
O—–C-CH3 ?-O
/
O O
/
CH3-C—–C-?
| |
CH3 ?

please correct my mistakes and tell me how it’s arranged in reality.


— Posted by The Great Milenko on 1:44 am on Feb. 12, 2002

Ah! lol *hits forehead* how stupid of me, of course triacetone triperoxide! lol soz about my stupidity, yeah, i think that ap is slightly easier to make and is alot less sensitive to contaminents, but htmd is slightly more powerfull, so all in all i’d go with hmtd if i had a choice, but i dont really cause i’m not sure how easy it is to get hexamine around were i live.


— Posted by Sicopath on 2:58 am on Feb. 12, 2002

Well, let’s just consider how a fair amount of AP takes only $20 to make……


— Posted by Zambosan on 11:38 am on Feb. 12, 2002

Thanks for the input… HMTD is still pretty cheap to make too, but the hexamine is definitely the most expensive part. You can also make hexamine by bubbling ammonia through formaldehyde.

Hergor: here’s the trimeric form of AP. To visualize the dimer, just remove one acetone functional group and two of the peroxide groups. Note that it is cyclic, which makes it somewhat more stable than the dimer… although the peroxide bond is inherently unstable.

(CH3)2-C
/
O O
/
O O
/
(CH3)2-C—O—O—C-(CH3)2


— Posted by Hergor on 12:53 pm on Feb. 12, 2002

thanks Zambosan,
now i can imagine it’s reaction potential much better.

another question: how (un-)stable is tatp towards frictional forces?
(because all these news articles say that a terrorist had some tatp hidden in his shoe. if it is quite sensitive to friction, why didn’t he set it off? – i mean: hey it’s his shoe where it’s been found in!)


— Posted by Zambosan on 1:33 pm on Feb. 12, 2002

From what I understand, TATP is very friction sensitive… but that’s a pretty subjective statement. So is HMTD, but I’m comfortable handling it because I’m familiar with its nature; you can press it hard, but if you “scrape” it, it’s going to go off. I believe TATP is more sensitive, but I can’t say qualitatively how much more sensitive. The Shoe-na-bomber (:) couldn’t help myself) didn’t have his whole shoe filled with AP, it was just used as an initiator for a larger charge of PETN, which is used as a booster, for detonation cord, and in Semtex manufacture. So the AP charge could have been placed in an area of the sole of the shoe where it would be under less mechanical stress. Still, I wouldn’t want to be in *his* shoes. 🙂


— Posted by Cypher on 11:33 pm on Feb. 12, 2002



Quote: from The Great Milenko on 1:44 am on Feb. 12, 2002
soz about my stupidity

You should be hoe

what with all your cool ass knowledge, damn i wish i was more like you!! 🙁

(Edited by The Great Milenko at 4:03 pm on Feb. 13, 2002)


— Posted by jmb1125 on 12:13 am on Feb. 13, 2002

“SHOE-NA-BOMBER”
Ohhhhhhhhh brother……lol…….

Could you please help yourself next time? . . . lol . . . .

Did you here about the London musician?
He played in four flats……….
and was thrown out of three of them…..hahahaha..


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